Kilo SSKs

Khairul Alam

New Member
The Russian Kilo diesel-electric submarines are said to carry Strelets and Igla SAMs. How effective would they be against ASW helicopters and MPAs? Do the Iranian Kilos carry SAMs? Do all submarines carry SAMs?
 

contedicavour

New Member
The Russian Kilo diesel-electric submarines are said to carry Strelets and Igla SAMs. How effective would they be against ASW helicopters and MPAs? Do the Iranian Kilos carry SAMs? Do all submarines carry SAMs?
AFAIK it's mostly the Russians who carry SAMs aboard.
It can always be useful, but not much more than a sailor with a shoulder launched Stinger...
Besides, any non submerged SSK is very vulnerable and I'm not sure a couple of short range IR missiles would be enough to preserve it from a helo-launched ASM (our Marte Mk2 has a range of 30+ km) or torpedo.

cheers
 

turin

New Member
The Russian Kilo diesel-electric submarines are said to carry Strelets and Igla SAMs. How effective would they be against ASW helicopters and MPAs? Do the Iranian Kilos carry SAMs? Do all submarines carry SAMs?
The russian SAMs IIRC can only be fired when the SSK is at the surface, but someone might correct me here.
They are currently the only submarines carrying SAMs.
None of the export-Kilos is carrying them as far as I know.

Germany is developing a new SAM-system though, designation IDAS (Interactive Defense and Attack System for Submarines), using a tube-launched multi-purpose missile for short-range air defense and coastal attack in submerged position.
 

contedicavour

New Member
The russian SAMs IIRC can only be fired when the SSK is at the surface, but someone might correct me here.
They are currently the only submarines carrying SAMs.
None of the export-Kilos is carrying them as far as I know.

Germany is developing a new SAM-system though, designation IDAS (Interactive Defense and Attack System for Submarines), using a tube-launched multi-purpose missile for short-range air defense and coastal attack in submerged position.
I've read on Jane's that the Indian Kilos carry IR SAMs. IIRC the Iranian ones have SA-10.
How does the German system function - I mean, how can it be guided if the radar mast is not sticking outside of the water ?

cheers
 

turin

New Member
mean, how can it be guided if the radar mast is not sticking outside of the water ?

cheers
As far as I can see it doesnt need radar-guidance. Its using a combination of an infra-red seeker and a fibre-optical data link:

http://www.diehl-bgt.de/index.php?id=563&L=1

With the IDAS missile system, a submerged submarine can engage enemy anti-submarine warfare helicopters, small surface vessels and land targets near the coast with highest precision. The IDAS system comprises the missile, four of which are housed in a special launch canister in the torpedo tube, and the control console in the submarine's command and control center. Main missile components are the imaging IR seeker taken over from IRIS-T, a fiber-optic data link between the control console and the missile as well as a single-stage, solid-propellant rocket motor providing IDAS with a mission range of approx. 20km.

The operator on board the submarine may intervene in the course of the mission at any time. In addition, reconnaissance results and target images obtained by means of the seeker can be evaluated in the submarine ...
More here:

http://www.armedforces-int.com/categories/precise-land-targets/guided-missiles.asp

In contrast to other fiber-optic guided missiles, IDAS is fully autonomous because the guidance computer is accommodated in the missile and the seeker can guide the missile to the target even without functioning data link.
 

contedicavour

New Member
As far as I can see it doesnt need radar-guidance. Its using a combination of an infra-red seeker and a fibre-optical data link:

http://www.diehl-bgt.de/index.php?id=563&L=1



More here:

http://www.armedforces-int.com/categories/precise-land-targets/guided-missiles.asp
Interesting thks. An evolution of IRIS-T both of our countries are buying !
So the SAM doesn't need a radar... though how do we make sure it doesn't hit a civilian target or provoke friendly fire accidents ? With no radar, the submarine would be shooting while being virtually blind.

cheers
 

Francois

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Strela and Igla are shoulder launched IR-guided missiles, that are stored in waterproof canisters in the uper casing.
That is nothing but a cheap russian "Stinger".

Now, most navies bring a set of shoulder mounted missiles depending on the mission.
 

turin

New Member
An evolution of IRIS-T both of our countries are buying !
So the SAM doesn't need a radar... though how do we make sure it doesn't hit a civilian target or provoke friendly fire accidents ? With no radar, the submarine would be shooting while being virtually blind.
You dont need radar information to know that an ASW-helo is hovering above your boat or that some enemy vessel is the closer area. The submarine may not see, but it can listen quite good. And its either friendly forces or the enemy, certainly not a mix of the two in such a small area. That makes it quite clear wether the helo is bent on taking you out or not. And civilian targets in a sea-based war-zone? Well, their fault.
We are talking about a last effort of self-defense here, making the presence of civilian ships higly unlikely, except in the case where that ship was the very target in the first place.

Note however, that the optical data-link provides for updated target information and therefore lowers the risk of collateral damage or friendly fire incidents.
 

contedicavour

New Member
You dont need radar information to know that an ASW-helo is hovering above your boat or that some enemy vessel is the closer area. The submarine may not see, but it can listen quite good. And its either friendly forces or the enemy, certainly not a mix of the two in such a small area. That makes it quite clear wether the helo is bent on taking you out or not. And civilian targets in a sea-based war-zone? Well, their fault.
We are talking about a last effort of self-defense here, making the presence of civilian ships higly unlikely, except in the case where that ship was the very target in the first place.

Note however, that the optical data-link provides for updated target information and therefore lowers the risk of collateral damage or friendly fire incidents.
Ok interesting thanks. The sub has better not be doing spying missions in the enemy's territorial waters or harbours though, because in self defence it could shoot down civilian helos or aircrafts.

cheers
 

Francois

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
You dont need radar information to know that an ASW-helo is hovering above your boat or that some enemy vessel is the closer area. The submarine may not see, but it can listen quite good. And its either friendly forces or the enemy, certainly not a mix of the two in such a small area. That makes it quite clear wether the helo is bent on taking you out or not. And civilian targets in a sea-based war-zone? Well, their fault.
We are talking about a last effort of self-defense here, making the presence of civilian ships higly unlikely, except in the case where that ship was the very target in the first place.

Note however, that the optical data-link provides for updated target information and therefore lowers the risk of collateral damage or friendly fire incidents.
Note that some US subs has the best ever sonar suite onboard and can't hear a tanker roaming around.

You MAY hear one airplane's propeller if you are close to the surface, the plane flights low, and the audio conditions are favorable.
That applies in rather rare circonstances actually.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
You MAY hear one airplane's propeller if you are close to the surface, the plane flights low, and the audio conditions are favorable.
the one large exception to the rule is the Tu-95. that plane is clearly an airborne rock concert - and should probably be nicknamed Lazarus as it would reawaken the dead .. :eek:nfloorl:
 

Rich

Member
They are currently the only submarines carrying SAMs.
None of the export-Kilos is carrying them as far as I know.

The Kilos exported to China carries a SAM system. Seriously tho If a submarine is ever in a position to fire a SAM against aircraft then the skipper of the boat has done something seriously wrong in the first place.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
maybe the question needs finessing.

ie are we talking about sub launched SAMs or whether they carry SAMs routinely?

A number of navies have MANPAD launchers on board - but at that point you'd probably have run out of options.
 
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turin

New Member
The Kilos exported to China carries a SAM system.
Do they? The only information or better, speculation, I got regarding the chinese subs, comes from sino-defense, saying:
http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/sub/kilo.asp

The Kilo class can be fitted with a launcher for eight Strela-3 (NATO codename: SA-N-8 Gremlin) surface-to-air missiles, but those in service with the PLA Navy are probably not in this configuration.
Oh, and when I was talking about the SAM-capability mentioned initially in the first post, I was referring to build-in systems, not MANPADs. Obviously they can be carried by just about everything, sub or not. Their operational effectivness is something of a different question.
 

Galrahn

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
The Kilos exported to China carries a SAM system. Seriously tho If a submarine is ever in a position to fire a SAM against aircraft then the skipper of the boat has done something seriously wrong in the first place.
Not necessarily. I can think of several scenarios where a SAM system would come in handy on a submarine.

It is why the US Navy is developing SAM systems for their submarines.
 
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