Israel sets its Boundaries

[merocaine]

Looks like Israel sent the German Navy a little message, dont get to nosey!

Israeli jets clash with German ship near Lebanon
Reuters
Oct 26, 2006 - 5:19:30 AM

BERLIN (Reuters): Two Israeli warplanes and a German navy vessel have clashed off the Lebanese coast, the Defence Ministry in Berlin said on Wednesday without giving further details.

Germany daily Der Tagesspiegel earlier on Wednesday quoted a junior German defence minister as telling a parliamentary committee that two Israeli F-16 fighters flew low over the German ship and fired two shots.

The jets also released infra-red countermeasures to ward off any rocket attack, the paper quoted him as saying.

The minister did not say when the incident happened or what had caused it, the paper said.

"I can confirm that there was an incident," a ministry spokesman told Reuters on Wednesday. An investigation was underway and he therefore was unable to provide further information, he added.

An Israeli military spokeswoman said she was checking the report.

Germany assumed command of a United Nations naval force off the coast of Lebanon 10 days ago and has sent a force of eight ships and 1,000 service personnel to join the international peace operation in the region.

The naval force is charged with preventing weapons smuggling and helping maintain a cease-fire between Israel and radical Lebanese-based Islamic group Hezbollah.

 

[icelord]

I know Germany and Israel have a long and close history and all, but if they did enter Israeli waters, and Israel went over the top, would it be a little...extreme in the sense of a ful scale battle?

 

[Grand Danois]

Full simulated attack runs on the UNIFIL naval component indicates poor judgement on behalf of the IDF/AF.

 

[contedicavour]

Full simulated attack runs on the UNIFIL naval component indicates poor judgement on behalf of the IDF/AF.

Completely nuts. Especially as the Germans have brought one of their F124 AAW FFGs and the Israeli F16s can hardly expect being able to dodge several SM2-IIIs and ESSMs !!
A stupid stunt

cheers nonetheless

 

[turin]

Completely nuts. Especially as the Germans have brought one of their F124 AAW FFGs and the Israeli F16s can hardly expect being able to dodge several SM2-IIIs and ESSMs !!
A stupid stunt

cheers nonetheless

The german frigates are "Mecklenburg-Vorpommern" (F123) and "Karlsruhe" (F122). No F124 frigate was chosen for this mission, I guess, partially for political reasons. The primary concern is sea-control for isolating Hisbollah. An AAW-unit would mean an approach more aware of confrontations with the IDF. At least thats the logic I think.

All in all I think we see the usual powerplay here, especially considering the israeli point of view on the whole operation.

 

[vedang]

SOUNDS a minor incident OVER-blown by MEDIA...

 

[Waylander]

Some news explained it this way.
As Grand Danois said before the IAF performed simulated attacks against our naval forces. They also forced one of our helicopters to land again on one of our FFGs.
One of our captains thought it would be time to show that this isn't funny and illuminated the F-16.
The self defense system of the F-16 then fired some chaffs/flares and the F-16 fired some warning shots.
The ship was one of our Flottendiensboote --> ships for intelligence missions full of observation and EW equipment.
The Israelis think that it was to close to their waters.
Is this the way to treat allies?
It is not like the world is full of friends of Israel and they don't need us.

 

[LancerMc]

Lets not forget the IAF has attacked ally intelligence ships before. They killed a number of US naval personal in attacking one of our intelligence ships in the 70's.

I think it is pretty arrogant of the IAF to think they could get away with something like that. The IAF was trying to say to the UN forces, is that they were still in control of the airspace and can do what they want at anytime. The German Navy decided to prove them wrong and good for them .

I support Israel's efforts in the region, but they needed their ego to be knocked down a couple of pegs.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

Sounds compleatly dumb. Simulated attack runs is no joke. If i was the captain i would have lit him up on his first run. Whats with the IDF? You'd think they would threat western allies like gods but they continually treat them like poo. You would think a nation in a state as precarious as isreals would respect what freinds she has. I think they need a serious spanking from washington.

 

[radiosilence]

Lets not forget the IAF has attacked ally intelligence ships before. They killed a number of US naval personal in attacking one of our intelligence ships in the 70's.
.

it was actually during the 1967 war they attacked the USS Liberty.

http://www.ussliberty.org/

 

[johngage]

Absolutely insane. Completely agree with Ozzy Blizzard, simulated attack runs are no joke, having been under one myself. All it takes is one mistake from a nervous 18-21 year old and this could have all ended in tears.

 

[Subangite]

Insane action, especially considering that the Germany was one of the first nations to support Israel early on, long before they recieved support from the US. It's firing against one of their most important historical ally!!! What are they getting at?? This reeks of arrogance and miscalculation by the IDF!!

 

[arunjsamuel]

Israel should have good coordiation with its allies...Incidents like this will result in deterioration of its world support...

 

[EnigmaNZ]

Stupid action considering how Germany has helped them with their submarine program. As a protest Germany could always halt work on the lastes 2 subs until an apology is forthcoming...

 

[Waylander]

Another thing is that nearly every land commander of UNIFIL is protesting against IAF airspace violation of their areas. And it is getting more and more.
UNIFIL commander asked for more AA equipment.

 

[contedicavour]

Stupid action considering how Germany has helped them with their submarine program. As a protest Germany could always halt work on the lastes 2 subs until an apology is forthcoming...

I am fully supportive of your recommandation.
An amazing one third of the costs of Israel's current 3 U214 SSKs was paid by German taxpayers. The 2 new SSKs building now are again 1/3 paid for by German taxpayers.
If the IDF's thanks for this gift is to simulate attacks against German FFGs and unarmed intelligence ships, then the very least to do is to stop immediately any aid.
German submarines are good enough to be exported without allowing for 1/3 discounts anyway.

I am surprised the German Navy didn't send a F124. We need a Spanish F100 or a Dutch De Zeven Provincen there to ensure credible AAW and frighten off the IDF planes. Real shame Doria and Forbin aren't 100% operational otherwise they would be damn useful there.

cheers

 

[Waylander]

We thought we wouldn't need an AAW FFG there.
Time proved wrong.
The new news are that there was no german helicopter in the wrong airspace because of which two F-16 scrambled.
First lie...
There were six F-16 instead of two running these simulated attacks.
Second lie now comfirmed by the Israelis...
The two salvos above the ship are also comfirmed.

It does not looks like a mistake but like a planned message to us.
They seem to be afraid of what an intelligence vessel might see and hear even if it is outside of Israeli waters.

Good that one of our captains had the balls to light them up. This is not a game. We are mainly there to protect the Israelis but UNIFIL is also there to divide both parties and look for questionable Israeli actions.

It is not easy these days to accept Israeli actions.

 

[Grand Danois]

Perhaps it should be mentioned that the ELINT ship Alster is supporting UNIFIL, but is not formally part of the UNIFIL naval component.

 

[Waylander]

Jap it is part of OEF in the mediterranien sea.
But this is totally unimportant. It is working together with the UNIFIL fleet and was in international waters.
There is no excuse for the Israeli behaviour.

 

[Grand Danois]

Jap it is part of OEF in the mediterranien sea.
But this is totally unimportant. It is working together with the UNIFIL fleet and was in international waters.
There is no excuse for the Israeli behaviour.

Easy now. What just adding detail and clarification to the incident.