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Indonesia: 'green water navy'

This is a discussion on Indonesia: 'green water navy' within the Navy & Maritime forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by haller I would add point 3: Damen ha NEVER wanted to build ships in Surabaya, because they ...


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Old August 25th, 2010   #181
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I would add point 3: Damen ha NEVER wanted to build ships in Surabaya, because they do NOT trust PAL, its quality, its capability to carry out the work. And in fact, while Fincantieri has always supported the idea of the "Korvet Nasional", since 2004, Damen has proposed, for PKR, a ship entirely built in Holland. Only in the last few months, they started playing dirty, claiming to build the ship "with" PAL, but with the idea of leaving them the local construction of bow and stern, while building the central part and the superstructure (that is 70% of the ship) in Holland (of course with PAL Engineers assisting to the comedy!). Maybe now they accepted to do all in Surabaya. Wait and see. Regarding the support given to PAL, Fincantieri proposed to develop the design together with PAL, with two advantages:
1. PAL develops design capabilities, not jut construction.
2. property of design would have been common.
For Damen, the design exists already. OK, the Dutch shall "concede" the licence, but the difference is not so little. And what about design capabilities?
On 28th of July and 5th of August in execrcise Eagle with RSN, one of Diponegoro's Sigma corvetes (Hasanuddin) take an active involvement. At that same time Karel Kaiseppo still in Lebanon waters. 50% of SIGMA fleet on active operation at one time was a good readiness by any Navy standard. For example from 11 Nuclear Carriers that USN Have only 5 (max 7) that at sea at same time. RAN submarines force only have 33% operational readiness (or 2 of 6 submarines) at same time.
No Navy in the world can have 100% fleet operational readiness at one time. Usually when a Navy said that their fleet at full readiness means that 50% can be on sea at same time, another 25% on port ready for action on notice, and 25% on maintanance and service state.
So, sorry based on the activity of TNI AL's SIGMA, I still tend to believe the TNI AL statement that they are in full readiness status. So far the problem that you (or other sources that I gather here) mostly point to the Lead SIGMA Corvete (Diponegoro) which I'm inclined to believe that inevitable when you dealling with a lead ships of new design class. Even RN have problem with Astute or Type 45 Lead Destroyer, and I believe usually the problem will reduced significantly on later ships.

While what the Damen tactics in last stage of bidding you can say it's dirty, however still acceptable in any business. What's important is that they in the end of bidding stage profide better deal to PAL. What the exact detail advantage of their deal compare to last stage offer from Fincantieri, well still need to review if already shown to public.
Personally I don't have enough detail data to judge whether the Fincantieri package is better than Damen ones.
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Old August 26th, 2010   #182
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So far the problem that you (or other sources that I gather here) mostly point to the Lead SIGMA Corvete (Diponegoro) which I'm inclined to believe that inevitable when you dealling with a lead ships of new design class. Even RN have problem with Astute or Type 45 Lead Destroyer, and I believe usually the problem will reduced significantly on later ships.
Ananda, sorry for butting in. Teething problems do indeed happen with new ships. The main question as I see it would be to ask if the problems faced by KRI Diponegero were as a result of a design flaw or as a result of shoddy workmanship partly caused by a lower grade of steel used? The problems face by the Type 45 were I believe mainly system integration problems and not because of any design flaw.
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Old August 26th, 2010   #183
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Ananda, sorry for butting in. Teething problems do indeed happen with new ships. The main question as I see it would be to ask if the problems faced by KRI Diponegero were as a result of a design flaw or as a result of shoddy workmanship partly caused by a lower grade of steel used? The problems face by the Type 45 were I believe mainly system integration problems and not because of any design flaw.
Good Question. Haller from his posts seems to put the problem with Diponegoro and the rest of SIGMA corvetes were Build Quality from Damen. Perhaps he does have more information on the quality of Diponegoro build quality, however my self from what I gather from sources in here spaculated that this more to manufacturing integrations especially in Lead Ship.

If this's overall design flaw, then all four Sigma's will be on long term adjustment on docks which at same time I only heard happen to Lead Ships (Diponegoro). In sense I Don't have enough evidances that blame on Damen Build Quality. This is a big purchase by TNI AL, and in present political conditions in Indonesia (where many politicians and media like to blame each others), if this happen to all Sigma I don't think the Navy can cover it up.

So far the Navy and operational record of Sigma's show good operational readiness of the corvetes. Lead ships problem can happen from system integration problem to manufacturing/hardware integrations on final assembly. I can only speculate that Damen did have assembly problem on the lead ship, but the later ships basically the problem were taking care off.
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Old September 3rd, 2010   #184
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Ananda is right on almost all the topics. In the sense that it's true that problems on the first ship are a common rule. But, most of time, they are problems to some systems (as it was the case of the radar), or a problem in integration (it happens almost always, and maybe this was not the case: good!). Here it looks there are two different types of problem: Design and Quality of the steel. If this is the case (and has to be demonstrated, of course, gossips have short legs!), it would be much more a scandal than a problem.
It is also true that, to have 50% of ships at sea is normal. Chronicles of the near future will tell us more on this subject. We must not forget we are talking of brand new ships!
And it is also true that, if Damen really intends to build the new ships in Indonesia, and if the price of Damen and Fincantieri are comparable (and it looks to be the case), the MoD does a good choice in selecting Dutch again. Commonality is a winning card, even if the new ships have different systems on board with respect to the Sigma. But, I repeat, Dutch had promised already, six years ago, to build Sigma 3 and 4 in Surabaya. Then, their "power" obtained to build them in Holland again. Will it be so difficult to them to demonstrate that PAL is not ready to build ships at home in the proper time frame and with proper quality level? Wait and see.
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Old September 4th, 2010   #185
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Ananda is right on almost all the topics. In the sense that it's true that problems on the first ship are a common rule. But, most of time, they are problems to some systems (as it was the case of the radar), or a problem in integration (it happens almost always, and maybe this was not the case: good!). Here it looks there are two different types of problem: Design and Quality of the steel. If this is the case (and has to be demonstrated, of course, gossips have short legs!), it would be much more a scandal than a problem.
It is also true that, to have 50% of ships at sea is normal. Chronicles of the near future will tell us more on this subject. We must not forget we are talking of brand new ships!
And it is also true that, if Damen really intends to build the new ships in Indonesia, and if the price of Damen and Fincantieri are comparable (and it looks to be the case), the MoD does a good choice in selecting Dutch again. Commonality is a winning card, even if the new ships have different systems on board with respect to the Sigma. But, I repeat, Dutch had promised already, six years ago, to build Sigma 3 and 4 in Surabaya. Then, their "power" obtained to build them in Holland again. Will it be so difficult to them to demonstrate that PAL is not ready to build ships at home in the proper time frame and with proper quality level? Wait and see.
Well haller you're not the first one who put doubt with Damen. Heard many in PAL still prefered Fincantieri. I can't say if Damen will try to keep the wholle business in Dutch and not provide enough support to PAL, however I suspect they'll not doing that.

Business wise Fincantieri now in better possition than Damen. For one thing if you go to their website you will see Fincantieri doing more projects right know than Damen. For Damen besides us and Marocco their Sigma design will only used in limited number by Dutch navy and only on OPV versions. Damen need the Sigma design to get more ordert if they still want good future in Naval design. This perhaps why they willing to go further in the offered compared to Fincantieri.

Modullar design whether Sigma or Commandante will be the based for future TNI AL vessels. At least that what the Administrations possitions. This basically also support by all political factions. In sense it will be very hard to sell politically on sourcing future corvetes or frigates outside domestic shipyard, eventhough financially it can be (at least in beginning) cheaper.

Diponegoros Sigma was to replaced the Samadikuns. The new Light Frigates is seems to fill the void in capability left by Tribals. Also by 2020 the Navy aim to get all six Van Speijk replaced (by that time they are more than 50 years in Dutch and Indonesian Navy). So you see by winning the bid, Damen potentially secured long term Naval design projects and continuation of Sigma design.

Last edited by Ananda; September 5th, 2010 at 03:15 AM. Reason: Verb Modification
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Old September 26th, 2010   #186
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PAL Potential Cooperation for Submarines Facilities

From Antara News Agency with Google Tranlate:

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Surabaya - Two South Korean shipping company offers project development and German submarines in PT Pal Indonesia.

"There are two companies from South Korea and Germany submitted a proposal submarine development cooperation," said President Director of PT Pal Indonesia, Harsusanto, at Surabaya on Wednesday.

First is the Daewoo, South Korean shipping company that offers construction Changbogo type class submarine 209.

Followed later Thyssen / HDW, the German shipping company, which also offers building submarine propulsion concept of free air ("air independent propulsion" / AIP).

"Actually, Daewoo also offers the concept of AIP submarines. His name is also Changbogo, but his class is different," said Harsusanto.

Both shipping companies are willing to build submarines at Pal, the same as that offered by a Dutch shipping company, Damen Schelde Shipyard Netherlands (DSNS), which will build the type of destroyer escort warship missiles.

"We also have prepared a submarine development here. There are several hangar that can be exploited," he explained.

According to him, the construction of submarines is different from other surface ships. The construction of submarines, it takes a lot of places because the system consists of several modules.

"With this cooperation, it can reduce the cost of manufacture of submarine production investment here because the submarine was very expensive," he said.

Harsusanto explain the technology transfer plan for the construction of submarines. For the first submarine, engineering design and installation of "outfitting" Working partners, while the integration and completion of the entire submarine done Pal.

On the construction of a second submarine, the installation of "outfitting", integration, and completion of the entire treated Pal. Furthermore, the third submarine, the process is expected to be done entirely in Pal.

Until now, Pal was still awaiting approval from the government to determine an offer of these two shipping companies. *
It's confirm more that West German Technology whether directly from HDW or from South Korea (from their initial License agreement) is the front runner on the next Indonesian submarines. If AIP offer can be confirmed, then seems 214 is the offer from HDW. Thus seems Kilo or Amur (i,e Rubin) not a stong conterder anymore ?? Well have to be seen whether Rubin can or will counter offer.

Interesting though that South Korean (Daewoo) offer 2 type; the 209 Chanbogo and an AIP Type. Currios though since under lincense 214 is the only AIP so far that South Korean build, can the license agreement for 214 from South Korea, can be used by them to be offered (as join manufacturing) with another parties ??

It's basically HDW design, will HDW allowed that to happen ??
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Old September 28th, 2010   #187
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It's basically HDW design, will HDW allowed that to happen ??
Interesting question. Daewoo had previously offered licensed built Type 209's to the Royal Malaysian Navy, which was allowed by HDW as part of the original signed for Type 209's to be built in South Korea. A similiar offer was made by Turkey's golcuk shipyard for Type 209's.

Ananda, did any Indonesian defence magazines mention any interest by the TNI-AU to fit the Brahmos on the Kilo/Amur? I read this in somewhere and I was wondering if there was any truth in it.
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Old September 28th, 2010   #188
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Interesting question. Daewoo had previously offered licensed built Type 209's to the Royal Malaysian Navy, which was allowed by HDW as part of the original signed for Type 209's to be built in South Korea. A similiar offer was made by Turkey's golcuk shipyard for Type 209's.

Ananda, did any Indonesian defence magazines mention any interest by the TNI-AU to fit the Brahmos on the Kilo/Amur? I read this in somewhere and I was wondering if there was any truth in it.
For 209 I think it's a clear cut since Daewoo did have license to offered sub license for third country to manufactured with Daewoo assistant. However with 214 with AIP which is the only AIP sub that Daewoo manufactured. HDW still offer 214 as their main export product, but not 209. That's why I'm currious with the agrrement on 214 between HDW and Daewoo.

So far the only mentioned on Brahmo was for Flankers. The Navy already got limited amount of Yashkont installed on Van Speijk.
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Old September 28th, 2010   #189
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The Navy already got limited amount of Yashkont installed on Van Speijk.
That would mean that the TNI AL now has the longest range ship launched ASM in service in South East Asia. The Yakhont has a reported maximum range of 300km but
I would guess that it needs mid course guidance to exploit it's full range . Given the difficulties one would have face integrating the Yakhont to the Ahmad Yani class, were any Russian radar or electronic fitted to these ships?

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Last edited by STURM; September 28th, 2010 at 12:15 PM.
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Old September 29th, 2010   #190
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That would mean that the TNI AL now has the longest range ship launched ASM in service in South East Asia. The Yakhont has a reported maximum range of 300km but
I would guess that it needs mid course guidance to exploit it's full range . Given the difficulties one would have face integrating the Yakhont to the Ahmad Yani class, were any Russian radar or electronic fitted to these ships?

.
The info on the Yakhont in TNI AL was scarce relative compared to info on Chinese C-802 that were installed on FPB 57 missiles boats. The significant info on Yakhont was that PAL conduct the installations and system integrations in Surabaya. Also no info that Ahmad Yani/ Van Speijk receiving new russian sensors and electronics. The Electronics suit on Ahmad Yani more or less still the same (albeit some modifications on system integrations conducted by PAL and LEN).

Your interesting point is the mid course guidance. Usually for SSM with Yakhont class this was conducted by Shipbourne choopers. However TNI AL Frigates now only equiped with NBO-105, in which I Don't know if they have the capabilities to conduct mid course guidances.
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Old October 1st, 2010   #191
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However TNI AL Frigates now only equiped with NBO-105, in which I Don't know if they have the capabilities to conduct mid course guidances.
Can't imagine it would be a problem fitting a data link to the Bo-105s, the problem again here is integration. Then again the Russians have a data link.
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Old October 6th, 2010   #192
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The info on the Yakhont in TNI AL was scarce relative compared to info on Chinese C-802 that were installed on FPB 57 missiles boats. The significant info on Yakhont was that PAL conduct the installations and system integrations in Surabaya. Also no info that Ahmad Yani/ Van Speijk receiving new russian sensors and electronics. The Electronics suit on Ahmad Yani more or less still the same (albeit some modifications on system integrations conducted by PAL and LEN).

Your interesting point is the mid course guidance. Usually for SSM with Yakhont class this was conducted by Shipbourne choopers. However TNI AL Frigates now only equiped with NBO-105, in which I Don't know if they have the capabilities to conduct mid course guidances.
Is it really proven that the Ahmad Yani class are now equipped with the Yakhont/P800 Oniks? I can not believe that this huge monster (3000kg, 8,9 m long, diam. 0,71 m), compared to the RGM-84 ( 691 kg, 4,6 m long, diam 0,31 m) which was previously installed, has replaced the Harpoons. Besides the dimensions and weight, i dont think the old Hollandse Signaal radarsystems can handle this modern Russian stuff.
Whats the source? Wiki? Kaskus?
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Old October 7th, 2010   #193
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Is it really proven that the Ahmad Yani class are now equipped with the Yakhont/P800 Oniks? I can not believe that this huge monster (3000kg, 8,9 m long, diam. 0,71 m), compared to the RGM-84 ( 691 kg, 4,6 m long, diam 0,31 m) which was previously installed, has replaced the Harpoons. Besides the dimensions and weight, i dont think the old Hollandse Signaal radarsystems can handle this modern Russian stuff.
Whats the source? Wiki? Kaskus?
From Kompas News Paper Feb 12 2010 (with Google Translate)

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SURABAYA, KOMPAS.com - Ability Indonesian shipbuilding industry really can not be underestimated. . For example, Battleship Division PT PAL Indonesia (Persero) was able to install Russian-made missile Yakhont to KRI Oswald Siahaan or OWA . Installation of missiles in Indonesia will save money vessel industry.

Head Installation Project missile Yakhunt Sutrisno said, now it is making the installation of missiles in the KRI OWA. "In April next four missiles from Russia would come and ready to be installed at KRI OWA, he said," Tuesday (16 / 2) at PT PAL Indonesia (Persero), Surabaya.
Like I said, the info on Yakhont existance in the Van Speijk Frigates was very scatchy. I found another mentioned on Yakhont on Van Speijk in Angkasa Magazines (sorry no online versions) in which talking about the same thing.
Seems the Navy do not want to elaborate much on the Yakhont projects. My understanding the installations on one of the Van Speijks Oswald Siahaan's first trial, how does it goes after that still on silence mode. One thing is clear though, the Navy wants to use Yakhont as Harpoon replacement, and those Van Speijks is the only Frigates in TNI AL inventory that's equip with Harpoon and later on (as plan) Yakhont.

Still with no info on how the integration being done, whether adjustment on electronics/sensors on existing or new one in the Van Speijks, I still reserve my doubt if the true potential on Yakhont can be exploit.

Last edited by Ananda; October 7th, 2010 at 02:54 AM.
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Old October 7th, 2010   #194
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Besides the dimensions and weight, i dont think the old Hollandse Signaal radarsystems can handle this modern Russian stuff.
Whats the source? Wiki? Kaskus?
With some structural modifications, I think the Ahmad Yani class can accommodate the Yakhont and the launchers. The Yakhont is big but not in the same class as
a Sunburn , which is massive! Apart from the question of integation issues, that probably can only be resolved with the addition of Russian sensors to the Ahmad Yani class, I'm really curious if the Yakhont can be made compatible with Western data links such as Link Y.

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Old October 10th, 2010   #195
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From Kompas News Paper Feb 12 2010 (with Google Translate)



Like I said, the info on Yakhont existance in the Van Speijk Frigates was very scatchy. I found another mentioned on Yakhont on Van Speijk in Angkasa Magazines (sorry no online versions) in which talking about the same thing.
Seems the Navy do not want to elaborate much on the Yakhont projects. My understanding the installations on one of the Van Speijks Oswald Siahaan's first trial, how does it goes after that still on silence mode. One thing is clear though, the Navy wants to use Yakhont as Harpoon replacement, and those Van Speijks is the only Frigates in TNI AL inventory that's equip with Harpoon and later on (as plan) Yakhont.

Still with no info on how the integration being done, whether adjustment on electronics/sensors on existing or new one in the Van Speijks, I still reserve my doubt if the true potential on Yakhont can be exploit.
Thanks for your explanation, hopefully its true and a succesfull project.
But its still remarkable they using the P800 Oniks in stead of the Kh-35 Uran.

Last edited by Sandhi Yudha; October 11th, 2010 at 11:18 AM.
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