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This is a discussion on Chinese Navy News and Discussion within the Navy & Maritime forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by aussienscale While I agree with GF with regards to the bells and whistles being missing from the ...


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Old December 11th, 2010   #31
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While I agree with GF with regards to the bells and whistles being missing from the PLA(N) this will not be the case for very long, and even though it is missing they are still a formidable force not to be taken lightly, and what they lack in tech, they certainly make up for in spirit.
I'm being misunderstood then.

I've been pretty persistent in stating that in addition to not having gucci and contemp kit, they do not have thye force structure and.or training in place to realise the benefits.

to develop and affirm doctrine you haver to train - and to learn about theatre events you need to train with others because it tests your own doctrine.

4 years ago when people were getting excited about chinese aircraft carriers I repeatedly stated that they would need at least 5 years before it was slipped - and then another 3-4 years to work it up and get it certified for fleet capability,

everything I said 4 years ago still stands - they still haven't launched a short hull, they theyfore will need another 2+ years before a long hull is commissioned, and then they will need to work up blue water doctrine as well as get the support assets into play.

they're a long way from being able to counter even japan and sth korea in blue water ops, and unless something major happens, any task force will be loitering around light blue conditions for a number of years until the task force itself is robust or they extend covering air.

as enthusiastic as they are, reality still applies to whats actually needed to be done before they're combat ready.

Wall83's timeframe is realistic.
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Old December 11th, 2010   #32
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I doubt China wants to start any war. They just want to be the dominant naval power in the region and at the end the dominant power of the world. With the final goal to surpas the US navy.

Give the PLAN two more decads and I think they will reach that goal.
Why would you build so many ships and have so much determination? I didnt mean China want to go to war right now. History has prove if you build up your navy its a reason behind it. I would like to know what the reason nothing but a future conflict. Look at the U.S. Navy when they build up the navy they knew what they were doing. U.S. Navy decided to build up its aircraft carriers to prepared for a conflict the bottom line. I don't see them surpassing the U.S Navy I see them becoming the 2nd largest navy. There experience in the ocean is what going to hurt them they just completed it world tour. The U.S. Navy being doing this for decades.
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Old December 11th, 2010   #33
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I'm being misunderstood then.

I've been pretty persistent in stating that in addition to not having gucci and contemp kit, they do not have thye force structure and.or training in place to realise the benefits.

to develop and affirm doctrine you haver to train - and to learn about theatre events you need to train with others because it tests your own doctrine.

4 years ago when people were getting excited about chinese aircraft carriers I repeatedly stated that they would need at least 5 years before it was slipped - and then another 3-4 years to work it up and get it certified for fleet capability,

everything I said 4 years ago still stands - they still haven't launched a short hull, they theyfore will need another 2+ years before a long hull is commissioned, and then they will need to work up blue water doctrine as well as get the support assets into play.

they're a long way from being able to counter even japan and sth korea in blue water ops, and unless something major happens, any task force will be loitering around light blue conditions for a number of years until the task force itself is robust or they extend covering air.

as enthusiastic as they are, reality still applies to whats actually needed to be done before they're combat ready.

Wall83's timeframe is realistic.
Agree with that - 15-20 years sounds about right, maybe longer really. Looking at the pic posted earlier of the Varyag she is still very high in the water with lots of gear still to go in, I would not expect to see her for more than a few years, dates have not even been set for pilot training with Brazil as yet, let alone training up deck crew etc.
Yes they are a long way off, but I think they are working very hard on developing the necessary doctrine and training required, one of the biggest issues is who do they train with to gain that knowledge and experience ? There is talk of regular exercises with Brazil, but that is hardly going to move them forward in leaps and bounds
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Old December 12th, 2010   #34
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Why would you build so many ships and have so much determination? I didnt mean China want to go to war right now. History has prove if you build up your navy its a reason behind it. I would like to know what the reason nothing but a future conflict. Look at the U.S. Navy when they build up the navy they knew what they were doing. U.S. Navy decided to build up its aircraft carriers to prepared for a conflict the bottom line. I don't see them surpassing the U.S Navy I see them becoming the 2nd largest navy. There experience in the ocean is what going to hurt them they just completed it world tour. The U.S. Navy being doing this for decades.
Every military hardware is ment to be used in war, but that does not mean that you are planning a war. China wont ever go to war in full scale. The world of nukes prevents that. At most they will attack smaller nations that they feel threaten by.

The naval build up is just for show. Sure it can be used but as former super power in the 19th centruary its most for showing muscle.

PLAN will continue to build up. New cariers will be constructed. I would think in the next 5 years period. The Varyag will be first ofcource in a year or two.
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Old December 12th, 2010   #35
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Every military hardware is ment to be used in war, but that does not mean that you are planning a war. China wont ever go to war in full scale. The world of nukes prevents that. At most they will attack smaller nations that they feel threaten by.

The naval build up is just for show. Sure it can be used but as former super power in the 19th centruary its most for showing muscle.

PLAN will continue to build up. New cariers will be constructed. I would think in the next 5 years period. The Varyag will be first ofcource in a year or two.
when you consider a large chunck of their population is starving there are better things they should be focusing on then "flexing".
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Old December 12th, 2010   #36
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when you consider a large chunck of their population is starving there are better things they should be focusing on then "flexing".
I am sorry, but if you are you are trying to suggest that there is starvation; let alone substantial starvation in the PRC than that is utter bunk!

This is the second time to my knowledge that you have based on opinion on the modern PRC based on conditions that ended 30 years ago.
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Old December 12th, 2010   #37
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when you consider a large chunck of their population is starving there are better things they should be focusing on then "flexing".
What you say lies in more context with the conditions in North Korea rather than PRC
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Old December 12th, 2010   #38
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PRC expenditure as a percentage of GDP is quite low c1.4%, even if you take the higher unofficial estimates its between 2.2-2.8%. Nothing like the level of the USA and there are plenty of pressing cause they could spend some of this on (reducing their debt for one!)
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Old December 12th, 2010   #39
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when you consider a large chunck of their population is starving there are better things they should be focusing on then "flexing".
Well all money could be better spent then spending it on armed forces, but the world does not work that way Im afraid.

The US could easly find better ways to spend its defence budget. Free health and wealfare for the people ecs.

And im not an expert on China in general, but do people relly starve there anymore?
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Old December 12th, 2010   #40
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Cool

The Chinese has a saying: "Rich Country Strong Military". That's what China is doing for its Navy. It's going to protect its claimed territorial waters and islands where there are energy resources in the South China Sea and East China Sea, as well its SLOCs in the Indian Ocean and Western Pacific. I believe the US and its allies (Japan & South Korea) will balance this Chinese Power for their own interests.
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Old December 13th, 2010   #41
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before this travels down the road of people getting cranky at each other, lets ratchet it down and pause a bit first
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Old December 13th, 2010   #42
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The Chinese has a saying: "Rich Country Strong Military". .
Are you sure? That was a Japanese slogan in the late 19th century.
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Old December 13th, 2010   #43
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I agree with your last remark It will be interesting to watch them in the future as we writing on this forum right now the Chinese Navy is working on some ships in there shipyards. I just sit and watch and listen to the reports about the Chinese Navy they seem to want to built there navy up. I was reading the paper one day back in 2003 that Chinese were working on over 20 ships. First thing came to my mind is that China is preparing for war. If you been at shipyard before the task of making a ship is no joke. If you making that many ships that would take alot resources to do
When you see the yard capacity in China, building 20 warships is a drop ion the bucket, the Chinese will deliver over 1000 new vessels this year, they are the worlds largest shipbuilding nation, they over took the Koreans recently, no Western nation (least of all the US with it's yards still in the dark ages) has the ability to build as many vessels as the Chinese can.
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Old December 13th, 2010   #44
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China cannot even control North Korea for God’s sake, who are they kidding?
Have you ever thought China is always the quite one. They don't mess in other people's affairs or assert too much. That has been Chinese culture. Chinese people are placid race. Just cause they don't want to bully another country or stick their nose into other people's matter doesn't make them weak, scared or pushover. They will only act when its in their nations interest. Unlike some other countries who go to war over some imaginary generated threat that they made up themselves. Its easy to talk when the country isn't armed with nukes and is smack bang right beside you (China).
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Old December 13th, 2010   #45
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when you consider a large chunck of their population is starving there are better things they should be focusing on then "flexing".
wow really? Are you that misinformed and brainwashed about China. They aren't "flexing." They are building their navy to protect their economy interest, which runs the country and helps the people. Let's bring America as example they can better put money into taking care of its own citzens yet they dont. Their budget is WAY too big.
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