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Brazilian Naval Strength

This is a discussion on Brazilian Naval Strength within the Navy & Maritime forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; NFI, just think it's very curious as to why a country would have 3 different types of - broadly comparable ...


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Old December 18th, 2014   #241
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NFI, just think it's very curious as to why a country would have 3 different types of - broadly comparable - AShM in inventory.
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Old December 23rd, 2014   #242
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http://www.asdnews.com/mobile/news-58454/Elbit_US_Subsidiary_Awarded_$106_M_for_Upgrade_of_ C-1A_Aircraft_for_Brazilian_Navy.htm

News of the Brazilian Navy C-1A upgrade program has finally been released, Elbit systems' US subsidiary have been awarded a $106 million subcontract (with Marsh Aviation as prime contractor) to upgrade 4 airframes.

In Brazilian Navy service, the upgraded C-1A's will be COD/AAR aircraft designated as KC-2.

The aircraft will be serving on their aircraft carrier, NAe São Paulo.
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Old December 30th, 2014   #243
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Looking at the Wiki figures (I know) it would take up almost the entire payload of the thing. The Brazilian Navy uses Sea Skua for their Lynx (Sea Venom export potential?) but they use Penguin AShM in their S70-B fleet and that's something only about since 2012 or so.

Makes you wonder why they're fitting their medium lift aircraft with a missile which currently isn't present in any of their air arms. Supposedly the Brazilian Air Force has Harpoon in their inventory!
The AM 39 Exocet is being fitted to the new EC725, no plans to retrofit to Lynx as far as I can see. But yes, quite a few types of missiles and types of maritime aircraft for that matter, suggesting that cost of acquisition and integration seem to weigh heavier on their consideration than through life costs for multiple systems (for the time being anyway).

Harpoon may be carried on P-3s, not aware of it having been fitted on helicopters.
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Old February 26th, 2015   #244
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Reports from February's Warships IFR have told us that Brazil has, reportedly, dropped or at least postponed their requirement for 2 aircraft carriers to replace Sao Paulo and have instead gone for modernising Sao Paulo.

The goal is to extend her life out to 2039 (making her 82 years old at her OSD) and the modernisation will start in June. She'll take 4 years for it to be completed, both catapults will be repaired and the elevators will be modified to lift 20t (more than enough for a fully bombed up Gripen NG).

DCNS has the contract for modernisation and maintenance of her propulsion system.

Another area of improvement has been her anti-aircraft self defence capability, her radars will be replaced and her communications systems will be overhauled. Maybe they'll pick up CAMM again for her.

The report discusses the idea of a Sea Gripen NG being the likely fixed wing aircraft for the Navy.

It also covers the opening of a new sub shipyard/naval base which'll be at the centre of their sub program. 5 Scorpene vessels - 4 AIP SSK and 1 SSN configuration. SSN ISD is 2021.
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Old February 28th, 2015   #245
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AMP3: Maybe you're right and acquisition costs are the first consideration. But you also have to factor in that the Brazilian Navy isn't that big and Brazil is. So they have a lot of different tasks in widely varied terrain and not so much equipment and personnel to do it with. Maybe their equipment is really really taylored, or maybe it's out of necessity.
Brazil's ships are relatively small, so operating the Lynx makes sense. But they also want something bigger to operate from their carrier so they use the seaking which they are replace with the S-70B. The EC725 I don't really know why it needs AM39, but it's a good transport and could be important for amphibious operations. I don't know maybe I'm full of shit, could be!

RobWilliams: Why do you think they postponed the new carriers? Is it financial or technical? And if they needed a partner for a carrier project wouldn't France be a logical candidate?
Regarding a naval Gripen, who's going to build it? And neither Sweden nor Brazil have experience with naval fighters. As far as I know Sweden never needed one and Brazil probably has experience with maintenance overhaul and upgrade. But nothing as advanced as navalizing an aircaft. Will they seek help from a 3rd party?
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Old March 1st, 2015   #246
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RobWilliams: Why do you think they postponed the new carriers? Is it financial or technical? And if they needed a partner for a carrier project wouldn't France be a logical candidate?
Mixture. As much as people say how well Brazil's economy is going, it's not going to staggeringly well that they can go on a spending spree. Then there's also the fact that for the Brazilians getting their sub fleet into service and getting their own industry to start cranking them out is their priority IIRC.

France is totally a candidate, arguably BAE Systems/ACA is in there too considering their current build/integration experience being gained right now.


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Regarding a naval Gripen, who's going to build it? And neither Sweden nor Brazil have experience with naval fighters. As far as I know Sweden never needed one and Brazil probably has experience with maintenance overhaul and upgrade. But nothing as advanced as navalising an aircaft. Will they seek help from a 3rd party?
Sea Gripen is already being designed, it was completed by teams in Sweden and the UK working together and I think was done in 2012. The UK provided the maritime portion of experience in navalising the design.
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Old May 3rd, 2015   #247
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Loads of interesting news coming out from Brazil over the last couple of months.

M7 Aerospace dá início ao processo de modernização dos aviões C-1A Trader para COD/AAR da MB | Poder Naval - Marinha de Guerra, Tecnologia Militar Naval e Marinha Mercante

Brief article about the modernisation of their C-1A Trader aircraft for COD/AAR duties, including concepts of the future flight deck layout.

Sea Gripen da Marinha do Brasil na LAAD 2015 | Poder Naval - Marinha de Guerra, Tecnologia Militar Naval e Marinha Mercante

Neat model from Saab at LAAD 2015 of the Sea Gripen, it's loaded out with A-Darter and Meteor AAMs and RBS-15 AShMs.

Then there's a flurry of articles about Brazilian frigates.

LAAD 2015: devido ao ajuste fiscal, ministro Jaques Wagner diz que PROSUPER está ‘hibernando’ | Poder Naval - Marinha de Guerra, Tecnologia Militar Naval e Marinha Mercante

Due to the current economic situation Brazil (IIRC it's beginning to level off), the Brazilian DefMin has said that the MNs plan to buy 5 frigates, 5 OPVs and a supply ship is 'hibernating'. Of course, this has knock on effects, the readiness of the current Brazilian surface fleet is already of a concern.

Precisamos, para já, de 4 (bons) navios usados | Poder Naval - Marinha de Guerra, Tecnologia Militar Naval e Marinha Mercante

Which is probably why the plan no is to extend the life of their Niteroi class frigates out to 2027-2030.

Seems like a perfect storm brewing for the Navy. The end of the next decade includes the removal of the A-4 from their fixed wing fleet and the current projection for a 'Sea Gripen', the induction of their first nuclear submarine, the induction of a class of two ~50,000t aircraft carriers and now a major escort fleet renewal.
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Old May 6th, 2015   #248
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Economically, they still sound like they're struggling - they're a few hundred million behind with supplies like Embraer for instance.

Embraer eyeing slowdown of KC-390 program if Brazil cannot pay | Reuters
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Old May 7th, 2015   #249
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Indeed, it potentially is a case of aspirations outstripping what the funding is allowing them to do.

Shame to see it impacting the KC-390, in my eyes it seemed like the KC-390 was the flagship Brazilian project. You gotta think what a slowdown of the project will do to the other customers, maybe influence if they decide to shop elsewhere if the project slows down enough.

In other news, Brazil is seeking to buy 5 40mm naval guns from BAE Systems to outfit their indigenous Macaé class patrol boats being built.

Brazil set to procure BAE Systems Bofors 40 mm weapons - IHS Jane's 360
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Old July 1st, 2015   #250
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Apart from France/Italy, UK and Spain, the Brazilian Government has recieved two more offers from the US and China to fulfill their PROSUPER requirement. That requirement is for 5 frigates, 1 replenishment ship and 5 patrol ships.

https://translate.google.co.uk/trans...-text=&act=url

The Chinese have put forward an offer based on their Type 052B destroyer, the Type 903 stores ship and the Type 056 corvette for their OPV requirement.

The US offer is a bit less clear cut, the offer supposedly is based on Arleigh Burkes and a T-AOE-10 which is a resupply ship recently withdrawn from active service. The OPV section is unknown.

Considering Brazil is becoming more budget-oriented due to their challenged economy, the sale of $1bn destroyers seems unlikely.
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Old September 23rd, 2015   #251
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No mention of Italy inside, (Fincantieri can the lot), or perhaps German LHDs (TKMS MHD 200), or perhaps the Nederlander, who may also fill the many slots (Damen Sigma corvettes, DZP AAW, Enforcer LPD/JSS), or perhaps BVT corvettes/OPVs. I'd expect all that lot to a minimum of consider making offers. Have got they made available & recently been rejected?
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Old February 22nd, 2017   #252
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I see Brazil is officially retiring its carrier.

Brazil is Retiring Its Only Aircraft Carrier

Does that make it offically a green water force? There is apparently going to be a replacement but decades into the future.
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Old February 23rd, 2017   #253
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I see Brazil is officially retiring its carrier.

Brazil is Retiring Its Only Aircraft Carrier

Does that make it offically a green water force? There is apparently going to be a replacement but decades into the future.
I think it has always been a green water navy, while having a carrier (more in name then actual use) gave it some extra hitting power it still lacked the global reach that blue water navies have.

They are capable enough to slot into global operations supporting and being supported by allies but not able to operate independantly outside of the Southern Atlantic in any meaningful fashion.

So still green water, and this may work to there advantage in allowing them to get there other asset's sorted before trying to work in a carrier.
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Old April 18th, 2017   #254
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I think it has always been a green water navy, while having a carrier (more in name then actual use) gave it some extra hitting power it still lacked the global reach that blue water navies have.

They are capable enough to slot into global operations supporting and being supported by allies but not able to operate independantly outside of the Southern Atlantic in any meaningful fashion.

So still green water, and this may work to there advantage in allowing them to get there other asset's sorted before trying to work in a carrier.
It seems that Brazil is close to acquire the HMS Ocean. It is not exactly a replacement for the São Paulo but it will be a useful Helicopter Carrier to support the Brazilian Marines and execute some ASW and ASuW tasks.
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