ASW Questions,

[B1RDY]

Mixing short range SAMs with fast guns into a combined CIWS is becoming quite fashionable lately... Oto Melara of Italy's Finmeccanica has just presented at Bourget a prototype mixing 25mm CIWS with a module for 4 or 6 short range SAMs.
However I'm still a fan of pure SAM (as with RAM) or of heavier calibre guided ammunition guns (as with Vulcano-Strales 76/62 SR with ER ammunition) since the good old "wall of fire" argument 2 or 3 km away from the ship doesn't convince me in the age of very "smart" hypersonic cruise missiles with big warheads that can do a lot of damage even by exploding a km away from the ship...

cheers

Quick off topic question to fulfil my curiosity. Are there any sort of weapon systems designed to deliver torpedo's. I know that they are without a doubt the most effective method of ASW, but are limited by range, so is there some sort of missile system capable of delivering the torpedo to within an engagement range?

 

[AegisFC]

Quick off topic question to fulfil my curiosity. Are there any sort of weapon systems designed to deliver torpedo's. I know that they are without a doubt the most effective method of ASW, but are limited by range, so is there some sort of missile system capable of delivering the torpedo to within an engagement range?

ASROC. Anti Submarine ROCket.

 

[kato]

ASROC. Anti Submarine ROCket.

And just what it sounds like - i.e. an unguided rocket that only brings its payload into the rough desired target area. Range isn't that phenomenal either.

The Soviet Union developed a number of guided missiles carrying torpedoes, e.g. URPK-4/-5 (Metel/SS-N-14 Silex, for ships) and RPK-2 (Viyuga/SS-N-15 Starfish, for submarines).

 

[B1RDY]

ASROC. Anti Submarine ROCket.

Thanks! Did a little research on YouTube and there didn't appear to be any ASROC weapons of any great range (10+km). Is there a longer range ASROC being developed, has the idea been discarded, what are the limitations of developing a much longer range ASROC weapon? Longer range being harpoon missile ranges (125km).

 

[AegisFC]

Thanks! Did a little research on YouTube and there didn't appear to be any ASROC weapons of any great range (10+km). Is there a longer range ASROC being developed, has the idea been discarded, what are the limitations of developing a much longer range ASROC weapon? Longer range being harpoon missile ranges (125km).

Both ASROC and the South Korean variant (K-ASROC) have an unclass range of about 20KM.
There really is not a long ranged ASW weapon because ASW isn't performed at the ranges that anti-surface warfare is performed. A hull mounted set has limited range and any off ship asset (helo or P-3 type aircraft for example) will usually have their own weapon payload.

 

[Milne Bay]

I know it is not in use any more, but since tomorrow is Australia Day, I thought I would mention the venerable Ikara missile that had a 10 nm range.

 

[Lindermyer]

I know it is not in use any more, but since tomorrow is Australia Day, I thought I would mention the venerable Ikara missile that had a 10 nm range.

And better still the Ikara could be updated / guided in flight.

Such a shame that system fell by the wayside.

A friend of mine wo served on leanders reckons that in RN service it would have been useless though, the shelter it was mounted in slowed down respose time and made such a racket that any submarine would be well over the horizon and accelerating before a shot was ever got off. Mind you i dont think he really liked the lack of 4.5 inch gun

 

[B1RDY]

Both ASROC and the South Korean variant (K-ASROC) have an unclass range of about 20KM.
There really is not a long ranged ASW weapon because ASW isn't performed at the ranges that anti-surface warfare is performed. A hull mounted set has limited range and any off ship asset (helo or P-3 type aircraft for example) will usually have their own weapon payload.

So why, if torpedo's are the most effective anti-surface warfare weapon (in my opinion they are), hasn't any major advancement been made into increasing their range?

 

[kato]

All ASROC systems only deliver lightweight or ultra-lightweight ASW torpedoes, not heavyweight ASuW torpedoes.

SS-N-14 is the only one with decent performance against surface ships since it can be used as a regular anti-ship missile, and carries a 185-kg HEAT warhead for this purpose in addition to the lightweight torpedo (with a 60-kg warhead) that it carries for ASW. With some 50 km range it's also the longest-ranged such system.

 

[B1RDY]

All ASROC systems only deliver lightweight or ultra-lightweight ASW torpedoes, not heavyweight ASuW torpedoes.

SS-N-14 is the only one with decent performance against surface ships since it can be used as a regular anti-ship missile, and carries a 185-kg HEAT warhead for this purpose in addition to the lightweight torpedo (with a 60-kg warhead) that it carries for ASW. With some 50 km range it's also the longest-ranged such system.

Ok, thanks for your help!

 

[EXSSBN2005]

Thanks! Did a little research on YouTube and there didn't appear to be any ASROC weapons of any great range (10+km). Is there a longer range ASROC being developed, has the idea been discarded, what are the limitations of developing a much longer range ASROC weapon? Longer range being harpoon missile ranges (125km).

Detecting submarines at longer than 20km is very difficult unless its an older one thats noisy as aegisfc said. Not sure if your looking at a very expensive weapon system that you can fire blindly into an area where there might or might not be a sub but I would think this would be the case if your just shooting at random blips beyond the 20-30km range from your ship. The only way I could see this being of use would be if your off hull assets ( helo / anti sub patrol aircraft) were out of ammo (torps / depth charges / mines) and the contact still had not been killed and was still being tracked.

 

[B1RDY]

Detecting submarines at longer than 20km is very difficult unless its an older one thats noisy as aegisfc said. Not sure if your looking at a very expensive weapon system that you can fire blindly into an area where there might or might not be a sub but I would think this would be the case if your just shooting at random blips beyond the 20-30km range from your ship. The only way I could see this being of use would be if your off hull assets ( helo / anti sub patrol aircraft) were out of ammo (torps / depth charges / mines) and the contact still had not been killed and was still being tracked.

Yeh, I guess subs really do cover everything these days. I was thinking of the possibility of using an ASROC type system to engage and destroy surface contacts. I'd known that torpedo's were effective against surface contacts and was just looking at a way around the range problem.

 

[Arthicrex]

JMSDF has been equipping its ships with new Type 07 ASROC, which has longer range and speed than its predecessor. It uses inertial guidance and Type 97 torpedo as warhead.

With sub-searching being conducted more and more by onboard helicopters, they felt they needed more range on their ASROC.

 

[Volkodav]

Stand off ASW weapons probably make more sense when talking about stand off ASW sensors. Likely we will see a resurgence in interest once ships start deploying ROVs with the appropriate sensors at tens of NM from the parent ship.

 

[eldef]

Quick off topic question to fulfil my curiosity. Are there any sort of weapon systems designed to deliver torpedo's. I know that they are without a doubt the most effective method of ASW, but are limited by range, so is there some sort of missile system capable of delivering the torpedo to within an engagement range?

I dont know what your point but there are many torpedo control system in the naval warship with different name and torpedo types

 

[ProM]

Stand off ASW weapons probably make more sense when talking about stand off ASW sensors. Likely we will see a resurgence in interest once ships start deploying ROVs with the appropriate sensors at tens of NM from the parent ship.

There is a natural symmetry

At the moment. the helo is the best ASW asset fof both sensing and engagement , as ROVs come in or sensing, you can bet that using them to engage won't be far behind.

 

[B1RDY]

There is a natural symmetry

At the moment. the helo is the best ASW asset fof both sensing and engagement , as ROVs come in or sensing, you can bet that using them to engage won't be far behind.

Good point, the US Navy's unmanned helicopter looked pretty capable. If they could increase its range and payload capacity in the future then it would no doubt become top of the class for almost everything.

 

[tatra]

All ASROC systems only deliver lightweight or ultra-lightweight ASW torpedoes, not heavyweight ASuW torpedoes.

SS-N-14 is the only one with decent performance against surface ships since it can be used as a regular anti-ship missile, and carries a 185-kg HEAT warhead for this purpose in addition to the lightweight torpedo (with a 60-kg warhead) that it carries for ASW. With some 50 km range it's also the longest-ranged such system.

SS-N-14 Silex is the Metel Complex. There are different anti-submarine variants ('Metel') for cruisers and frigates, and a later version with a shaped charge ('Rastrub') that can be used against shipping as well as submarines. The missile has been in operational service since 1968, but is no longer in production; it was superseded by the RPK-2 Viyuga (SS-N-15 'Starfish').

The Metel missile is based on the P-120 Malakhit (NATO: SS-N-9 'Siren') anti-shipping missile. The missile itself is radio command guided and is powered by a solid fuel rocket motor. The later 'Rastrub' models of the weapon were "universal" carrying a smaller torpedo, but with a 185 kg shaped charge warhead for use against ships. Rastrub missiles were deployed alongside the anti-submarine versions of the missile.

The URPK-3 Metel entered service in 1969 on the Kresta II and Kara classes of cruisers. The URPK-4 was introduced in 1973, and the anti-ship version URPK-5 Rastrub in 1976. The URPK-4 has been used on the Burevestnik (NATO: KRIVAK) class frigate and the first batch of the Udaloy class destroyer; the Udaloy II carries the SS-N-15 'Starfish' = RPK-6 VODOPAD

Metel Anti-Ship Complex - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
RPK-2 Viyuga - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
RPK-6 Vodopad/RPK-7 Veter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Modern versions are members of the Klub family of missiles

91RE1 - Submarine launched anti-submarine variant, with an anti-submarine torpedo. Basic length 8.0 m, with a range of 50 km. Supersonic speed. The torpedo has a warhead weight of 76 kg. This, along with the 91RE2, are similar to the American ASROC/SUBROC missile/torpedo system. Follows a ballistic path into the surface, speed is 2.5 mach.

91RE2 - Ballistically launched anti-submarine variant, with an anti-submarine torpedo. Basic length 6.5 m, with a range of 40 km Supersonic speed. The torpedo has a warhead weight of 76 kg. For surface ship use only. The lightest of all variants, with a launch weight of 1300 kg. Speed is 2 mach

3M-54 Klub - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The French had the Malafon system, with a range of 13km
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malafon"]Malafon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

Australia's Ikara had a range of 19 km
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ikara_missile"]Ikara (missile) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

This is similar to the 20km Chinese CY-1 (C-801 based ASW missile)
CY-1 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And the 22 km US RUR-5 ASROC which later morphed into the RUM-139 VL ASROC
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asroc"]RUR-5 ASROC - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
RUM-139 VL-ASROC - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Italians had the Milas system, a version of Otomat carrying a lightweight torpedo
55 km range and compatibility with Otomat standard systems. It can put a torpedo in the water at 35 km of its launch platform within three minutes and, if required, change its impact point while flying. Only a few Milas missiles are in service, deployed on the two Durand de La Penne class destroyershttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otomat#Submodels

 

[kato]

Only a few Milas missiles are in service, deployed on the two Durand de La Penne class destroyers

Also planned to be fitted to the Italian FREMMs.

The unclass range of 35+ km is a joke btw, considering the payload of MILAS is only 150% that of an otherwise mostly identical OTOMAT Mk3.

 

[tatra]

Also planned to be fitted to the Italian FREMMs.

The unclass range of 35+ km is a joke btw, considering the payload of MILAS is only 150% that of an otherwise mostly identical OTOMAT Mk3.

Milas system, a version of Otomat carrying a lightweight torpedo
55 km range