About the aircraft carrier plan of China

Status
Not open for further replies.

bjskyhorse

New Member
About 1 month ago,it is said that China will build their aircraft carrier and they bought 50 su-33 from Russia.Yesterday,the news from HongKong said the plan is canceled.The navy of China will concerated on submarine and destroyer.Is there any one know more about this?
 

LancerMc

New Member
I was completely unaware of that news. I haven't heard any information about the canceled sale. Google hasn't even turned anything up about the news.
 

RubiconNZ

The Wanderer
About 1 month ago,it is said that China will build their aircraft carrier and they bought 50 su-33 from Russia.Yesterday,the news from HongKong said the plan is canceled.The navy of China will concerated on submarine and destroyer.Is there any one know more about this?
Got a link, or was it a news story on Television?
 

tphuang

Super Moderator
About 1 month ago,it is said that China will build their aircraft carrier and they bought 50 su-33 from Russia.Yesterday,the news from HongKong said the plan is canceled.The navy of China will concerated on submarine and destroyer.Is there any one know more about this?
don't believe anything coming out of Hong Kong regarding to PLA. So no, they are not cancelling on their carrier plan.
 

arunjsamuel

New Member
i dont think china has cancelled the plan to built the aircraft carrier...but it will take quite a long time...i think without foriegn help they cant built it soon..so we will have to wait for another 5 to 10 yrs....
 

qwerty223

New Member
don't believe anything coming out of Hong Kong regarding to PLA. So no, they are not cancelling on their carrier plan.
no. its not originally from HK. its from russian news actually.
i have the link. i post it later when i recall where it went.:)
 

contedicavour

New Member
With the Japanese already very nervous about N. Korea it could be a temporary decision meant for appeasement...
Anyway it will take a good decade to complete a carrier, so why not do something diplomatically smart and announce the carrier is "called off"... next year they can just say they changed their mind

cheers
 

aaaditya

New Member
With the Japanese already very nervous about N. Korea it could be a temporary decision meant for appeasement...
Anyway it will take a good decade to complete a carrier, so why not do something diplomatically smart and announce the carrier is "called off"... next year they can just say they changed their mind

cheers
i dont think china would bother about the apeasement of japan,it is more likely that they have experienced some technical difficulties.
 

SATAN

New Member
I know this is a bit off the topic, but China is working on a few new toys for its Navy, and yes that includes Aircraft carriers (They studied the Varyag for over a decade) and new SSBNs.


China Moves Ahead on New SSN Design

December 8, 2006: Having got its first two new, 7,000 ton, 093 class SSNs (nuclear attack subs) to sea, China is apparently underwhelmed by their performance. The 093s are too noisy, and have a long list of more minor defects as well. This may mean only two 093s will be built, while more resources will be diverted to the next SSN class; the 095. The 093 and 094 (the new SSBN, carrying ballistic missiles) were both over a decade in development and construction. Work began on the 094 class in the 1990s. For years, all that was known was that the Chinese were having technical problems with the new design. The 094 is a modern SSBN, using technology bought from Russia, plus what was developed by the Chinese in their earlier nuclear submarine building efforts. The Chinese have had a hard time building reliable nuclear subs, but they are determined to acquire the needed skills. You do that by doing it, and eating your mistakes.


The 094 is similar to the 093 class SSN, which looks a lot like the three decade old Russian Victor III class SSN design. Taking a SSN design and adding extra compartments to hold the ballistic missiles is an old trick, pioneered by the United States in the 1950s to produce the first SSBNs. The Chinese appear to have done the same thing with their new SSN, creating a larger SSBN boat of 9,000 tons displacement. Priority was apparently given to construction of the 094, as having nuclear missiles able to reach the United States gives China more diplomatic clout than some new SSNs.


The JL-2 ballistic missile for the 094 is still in development, even though the first 094 class SSBN to carry it was launched two years ago. The JL-2 has a range of 8,000 kilometers, and would enable China to aim missiles at any target in the United States from a 094 sub cruising off Hawaii or Alaska. Each 094 boat will carry 16 of these missiles, which are naval versions of the existing land based DF-31 ICBM.


The first 094 boat should be ready for service in two years, or less. It all depends on how soon the JL-2 missiles are ready for deployment. Things can go wrong with these new missiles, as the Russians learned with their latest SSBN design. The planned Russian missile did not work, and a new one, based on a successful land based ICBM (the Topol series) was used instead. But this required rebuilding of the new subs missile tubes, thus delaying the new subs construction. If the Chinese are lucky, they will have two or three 094s in service by the end of the decade, and as many 093 SSNs as well.


The 095 class SSNs are still in the design stage, and Russia is apparently offering some excellent SSN technology, at a price. China is still learning when it comes to building nuclear subs, so they may be forced to pay the Russians what they want, if the 095 is to be ready for service in the next decade.
 

LancerMc

New Member
Carriers and SSBN's are going to be the cornerstone of the PLAN's new blue water navy in the next few decades. Thats if they ever make it into service. You right SATAN the PLAN has had serious difficulties in building nuclear submarines in the past. With recent news its seem though they have become quite adapt at building silent conventional subs.

If the development of both the 94 and a future carrier hit serious delays or production problems China could face a battle for regional supremacy from India and its future naval ambitions. I still find it surprising that India has invested so much time and hard currency in the development of a new carrier, while China seems to be taking its time in developing one.
 

Francis

New Member
On my opinion and all the information i gathered , Instead of an Aircraft Carrier China will probably focus on surface combatants since the aircraft carrier and carrier battle groups were designed for Cold War scenarios. And because the ongoing battles of the 21st Century are mostly urban combat. not naval.
 

tphuang

Super Moderator
I know this is a bit off the topic, but China is working on a few new toys for its Navy, and yes that includes Aircraft carriers (They studied the Varyag for over a decade) and new SSBNs.


China Moves Ahead on New SSN Design

December 8, 2006: Having got its first two new, 7,000 ton, 093 class SSNs (nuclear attack subs) to sea, China is apparently underwhelmed by their performance. The 093s are too noisy, and have a long list of more minor defects as well. This may mean only two 093s will be built, while more resources will be diverted to the next SSN class; the 095. The 093 and 094 (the new SSBN, carrying ballistic missiles) were both over a decade in development and construction. Work began on the 094 class in the 1990s. For years, all that was known was that the Chinese were having technical problems with the new design. The 094 is a modern SSBN, using technology bought from Russia, plus what was developed by the Chinese in their earlier nuclear submarine building efforts. The Chinese have had a hard time building reliable nuclear subs, but they are determined to acquire the needed skills. You do that by doing it, and eating your mistakes.


The 094 is similar to the 093 class SSN, which looks a lot like the three decade old Russian Victor III class SSN design. Taking a SSN design and adding extra compartments to hold the ballistic missiles is an old trick, pioneered by the United States in the 1950s to produce the first SSBNs. The Chinese appear to have done the same thing with their new SSN, creating a larger SSBN boat of 9,000 tons displacement. Priority was apparently given to construction of the 094, as having nuclear missiles able to reach the United States gives China more diplomatic clout than some new SSNs.


The JL-2 ballistic missile for the 094 is still in development, even though the first 094 class SSBN to carry it was launched two years ago. The JL-2 has a range of 8,000 kilometers, and would enable China to aim missiles at any target in the United States from a 094 sub cruising off Hawaii or Alaska. Each 094 boat will carry 16 of these missiles, which are naval versions of the existing land based DF-31 ICBM.


The first 094 boat should be ready for service in two years, or less. It all depends on how soon the JL-2 missiles are ready for deployment. Things can go wrong with these new missiles, as the Russians learned with their latest SSBN design. The planned Russian missile did not work, and a new one, based on a successful land based ICBM (the Topol series) was used instead. But this required rebuilding of the new subs missile tubes, thus delaying the new subs construction. If the Chinese are lucky, they will have two or three 094s in service by the end of the decade, and as many 093 SSNs as well.


The 095 class SSNs are still in the design stage, and Russia is apparently offering some excellent SSN technology, at a price. China is still learning when it comes to building nuclear subs, so they may be forced to pay the Russians what they want, if the 095 is to be ready for service in the next decade.
why do you post this without citing source?
http://strategypage.com/htmw/htsub/articles/20061208.aspx?comments=Y
It's just another really bad article coming out of strategypage.
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Ähm, my question was a serious question and should not sound insulting or rude or something like that. :)
 

Ths

Banned Member
Bad strategypage article or not, let's for a moment consider the uncomfortable position the PLAN trying to become a blue water navy based on SSBN's and carriers.

Both crafts have a long history with lessons learned, huge cost and failures.

I remember reading that the Skipjack class wasn't the God gift to submariners (it might have been another class). Silence is just one issue, there are lots of others:
Making a reactor that is reasonably safe to operate is not easy.
The little issue of surfacing at some point and keep things from going terribly wrong - that lessons cost the US Navy Thresher.
The missiles: Well if ballistic missiles weren’t the official reason for both the Soviet and US space programme, then there were probably significant lessons learned.

Carriers is much the same story:
Even after the Essex-class a thing like the Midway-class happened and the Enterprise remains a one ship class. Just to show that even the best have less than sterling moments and have to live with less than optimum solutions.
Night operations from carriers remain an experience that reliable sources tell me you do not get used to.
Designing fighters is difficult enough, but building them with engines that just works - and I remain unconvinced of the quality of indigenously developed Chinese aircraft engines - is very, very difficult. Add to this the extra requirements of carrier aircraft.
The US Navy ended up with the Tomcat (yes I know I will insult a lot of US Navy fans). The Tomcat was an adequate plane, but at a high cost. And look at the number of designs that fell by the wayside: VFX-12, Grumman Jaguar, Swift. The desperate amounts of US work gone into VSTOL - they ended up having to buy British - the Grey Funnel Lines version of humble pie.
The Chinese will be very lucky if they can develop something like the Phantom II in 10 years.

This leads us to obstacles of significance:

1. Reverse engineering of quality furniture and flogging it on the market with false labels - that might work; but complicated engineering project is something else. There is huge information that is not patented, partly because it cannot be patented for various reasons; but never the less essential: You might even end up against craftsman’s secrets.
It is a little known fact that Denmark has close to world monopoly in building church organs. A Japanese company bought one, took it apart and tried reverse engineering it - to no avail and the uncontrollable mirth of the Danish organ builders. (Why anybody would risk that amount of money to enter such a limited market - organs last centuries - is beyond me!)
And that is only the information they won't tell you, there is a lot more they don't think of telling you.
Peter the Great explicitly forbade his workers to take orders from anybody but Dutch and Danish shipwrights - for a reason.

2. To meet timetables you'll have to cut corners. The rather unimpressive safety record of the Russian Navy - even before you factor in the limited sea time of their vessels - points to that. Even if you disregard the loss of life, as the Chinese will probably do, it is an unsatisfactory and very expensive way to put out fires by sinking the ship - on 100 fathoms. And if the sea is unforgiving, the submarines environment is positively hostile and vicious.

3. Even if China gets a carrier operational and the occasional sub underway, the other side hasn't been sitting on their hands - even if the American have gone complacent - which I don't believe for a minute - there are the Australians and the Japanese to thwart Chinese ambition to rule the Pacific.

4. Soviet Russian did their level best - and ruined a superpower - trying. The only judgment that can be passed on the Russian Navy: A waste of resources and a total failure. Failure to an extend that will take a few years still to be fully developed.

I'm not trying to put the PLAN down, but they are attempting the impossible.
 

tphuang

Super Moderator
Bad strategypage article or not, let's for a moment consider the uncomfortable position the PLAN trying to become a blue water navy based on SSBN's and carriers.
There has never been an article out of stratepage worth my time reading.
Both crafts have a long history with lessons learned, huge cost and failures.
which PLAN is going through
Making a reactor that is reasonably safe to operate is not easy.
The little issue of surfacing at some point and keep things from going terribly wrong - that lessons cost the US Navy Thresher.
The missiles: Well if ballistic missiles weren’t the official reason for both the Soviet and US space programme, then there were probably significant lessons learned.
We have no idea how safe the PLAN nuclear subs are if that's what you are speculating.
Carriers is much the same story:
Even after the Essex-class a thing like the Midway-class happened and the Enterprise remains a one ship class. Just to show that even the best have less than sterling moments and have to live with less than optimum solutions.
Night operations from carriers remain an experience that reliable sources tell me you do not get used to.
That's why they've already waited too long imo and shouldn't wait any longer.
Designing fighters is difficult enough, but building them with engines that just works - and I remain unconvinced of the quality of indigenously developed Chinese aircraft engines - is very, very difficult. Add to this the extra requirements of carrier aircraft.
su-33 uses AL-31 in case you haven't noticed. But as for indigenous carrier aircraft, by the time it's developed, WS-10A would be more mature and all the small problems addressed. I've posted this before on SDF, but WS-10A had to go through testing procedures approaching Western standards before being certified.
The US Navy ended up with the Tomcat (yes I know I will insult a lot of US Navy fans). The Tomcat was an adequate plane, but at a high cost. And look at the number of designs that fell by the wayside: VFX-12, Grumman Jaguar, Swift. The desperate amounts of US work gone into VSTOL - they ended up having to buy British - the Grey Funnel Lines version of humble pie.
The Chinese will be very lucky if they can develop something like the Phantom II in 10 years.
lucky to have Phantom II? They are going for JSF level aircraft in 10 years.
This leads us to obstacles of significance:

1. Reverse engineering of quality furniture and flogging it on the market with false labels - that might work; but complicated engineering project is something else. There is huge information that is not patented, partly because it cannot be patented for various reasons; but never the less essential: You might even end up against craftsman’s secrets.
It is a little known fact that Denmark has close to world monopoly in building church organs. A Japanese company bought one, took it apart and tried reverse engineering it - to no avail and the uncontrollable mirth of the Danish organ builders. (Why anybody would risk that amount of money to enter such a limited market - organs last centuries - is beyond me!)
And that is only the information they won't tell you, there is a lot more they don't think of telling you.
Peter the Great explicitly forbade his workers to take orders from anybody but Dutch and Danish shipwrights - for a reason.
which modern Chinese weapon system is reverse engineered?
2. To meet timetables you'll have to cut corners. The rather unimpressive safety record of the Russian Navy - even before you factor in the limited sea time of their vessels - points to that. Even if you disregard the loss of life, as the Chinese will probably do, it is an unsatisfactory and very expensive way to put out fires by sinking the ship - on 100 fathoms. And if the sea is unforgiving, the submarines environment is positively hostile and vicious.
over 1/4 of the commerical ships built around world are built in Chinese shipyards. Behind only the South Koreans and in front of the Japanese. They build huge tankers and cargo ships. Don't even compare the workmanship of Chinese shipyards with that of the Russians.
3. Even if China gets a carrier operational and the occasional sub underway, the other side hasn't been sitting on their hands - even if the American have gone complacent - which I don't believe for a minute - there are the Australians and the Japanese to thwart Chinese ambition to rule the Pacific.
It seems you are seriously anti-Chinese. Get over it.
4. Soviet Russian did their level best - and ruined a superpower - trying. The only judgment that can be passed on the Russian Navy: A waste of resources and a total failure. Failure to an extend that will take a few years still to be fully developed.
I'm not trying to put the PLAN down, but they are attempting the impossible.
China is not trying to ruin a superpower, it's trying to build a fleet that can project some power and protect the sea lanes where its oil tankers and LNG tankers pass through.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top