Russian 10,000 Anti-Ballistic Missile (ABM) shield

[killbill2]

But, according to the new Russian source material, Soviet designers worked around the slow speed of the interceptors by passing target data to them from huge battle-management radars positioned thousands of kilometers away. That gave them enough warning to launch the interceptors in time to kill the incoming warheads. The Russians also made clear that the main ABM system protecting Moscow was just as dependent as the SAMs/ ABMs on receiving target-tracking data from distant battle-management radars.

The Moscow-system missiles, the SA-5 and SA-10/12, were tipped with small nuclear warheads so they didn't require the incredible bullet-hitting-bullet complexity of the U.S. systems developed during the Clinton years. U.S. spy satellites repeatedly identified tactical nuclear-warhead storage sites at the interceptor bases spread across the Soviet empire.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1571/is_16_17/ai_74337128/pg_8

Prior to 1967 there was a consensus that the SA-5 could be a SAM/ABM, with the Hen Houses as the battle-management radars. After 1967, however, the CIA argued that the SA-5 was only a SAM, and that the Hen Houses provided only early warning of a missile attack. By about 1970 the majority agreed. Subsequently only a handful of Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) analysts, plus occasionally the Air Force and a few Department of Defense officials, made the case for Soviet national ABM defenses based on the SA-5/SA-10 SAM/ABMs and the Hen House/LPARs as battle-management radars.

The CIA relied almost exclusively on the "hard evidence" from U.S. technical collection systems despite the fact that such evidence was inconclusive and plagued by major "intelligence gaps." Now Russian sources have filled in most of the intelligence gaps, thus refuting the CIA's analysis on every critical issue.

* * *

From the mid-1950s until 1991 the Soviets followed a two track program: ABM systems designed by Kisun'ko and his successors to protect the apex of the party-state nomenklatura at Moscow with battle-management radars (Dog House, Cat House), from NIIDAR, and SAM/ABM systems designed for nationwide deployment by Raspletin and Bunkin with battle-management radars (Hen House, LPAR) from Mints' RTI, which also designed the Pillbox multi-functional radar in the ABM-3 system for Moscow. Although the SAM/ABMs could be relocated fairly quickly, however, and could be deployed nationally at relatively low cost, the battle-management radars were expensive and fixed.

* * *

Construction of the second-generation LPAR battle-management radars began in 1972 as negotiations on the ABM Treaty were completed. The U.S. delegation's attempt to limit ABM battle-management radars resulted in agreeing to construction of 18 such radars (article III), which was precisely the number the Soviets needed for redundant coverage by both first-generation Hen House and second-generation LPAR battle-management radars. The LPARs provided more precise target tracking to enhance the effectiveness of SA-5/10 SAM/ABMs but did little to improve early warning.

* * *

When the Soviet Empire went out with a whimper in 1991, about 10,000 SA-5/10 interceptor missiles were operational at more than 250 complexes, and 15 of 18 planned battle-management radars--nine Hen House and six LPARs--were operational.

http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/index.jsp?section=papers&code=00-F_37

although impressive it does have it's disadvantages

1.) It's highly dependent on these battle management radar's so if those are taken out the system is a goner.
2.)The max engagement altitude of the S300/400 series is about 100,000 feet. As for all defenses the range for intercpting ballistic missiles will be smaller.the small intercept capable range will be overwhelmed by MIRV's.
3.)These battlemanagement radars like all radars have alimit to how many targets they can engage at a time.
4.) factor this+terminal phase for an ICBM is about 30 seconds.
5.) The US has aACM 129's,JASSMS(including ER's), and tomahawks they can use to attack these radars.
6.) with the radar's dsiabled a high altitude EMP should disbale the sam network.

What do you guys think?

 

[DoC_FouALieR]

I think that it... is difficult to think about it!

Is the USA likely to attack the Russian federation or vice versa?
No
The cold war era has defenitively ended.

And if you look at the american "abm", how many missiles have they and what is their kill ratio?

 

[gf0012-aust]

I think that it... is difficult to think about it!

Is the USA likely to attack the Russian federation or vice versa?
No
The cold war era has defenitively ended.

And if you look at the american "abm", how many missiles have they and what is their kill ratio?

I don't have a problem questioning russian defensive capability - but I do struggle to see how such a high baseline of systems could be supported and triggered concurrently. There are some severe infrastructure and bandwidth issues in place - and the Russians don't have the same depth in their satellite constellations that they'd probably need to pull this off.

 

[killbill2]

So how effective would this be against a Trident D-5 onslaught???

 

[DoC_FouALieR]

Against a massive Trident D-5 strike?
Totally ineffective, Trident's are the most sophisticated SLBMs with very long range, thus MIRVs have very, very high speed in their re-entry phase. Plus additionnal decoys and space debris, so the russian detection network is going to be totally saturated...
Don't worry, the US nuclear deterent is still credible ;-)

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

Indeed, I don't think the Russians have the technology to build a credible missile shield. Even the Americans are having trouble with theirs. Plus it's not as if the Russian military has money to spare. They can't even keep their navy running properly......

 

[killbill2]

since their dependant on those battle management radars to hit ICBM's if you take them out their screwed. Heheheh B-2's with ACM 129's. However i know that S300/400 are highly resistant to chaff and flares. But doesn't matter an SLBM launch close to the shore with 10 MIRV's and ACM 129's is going to kill them. however it could nullify our ICBM force since you have plenty of time to react to those.So ACM 129's should be the decapitation strike fllowed by all of our ICBm's!!!!!!!!it should be well noted the intercpetor doesn't have to be as fast as or faster than the target to intercept it.You just needa good radar.

 

[gf0012-aust]

However i know that S300/400 are highly resistant to chaff and flares.

IIRC, the S300 hasn't been regarded as a major threat to US or Israeli aircraft for quite a few years.

 

[Black Legion]

IIRC, the S300 hasn't been regarded as a major threat to US or Israeli aircraft for quite a few years.

And where has excatly the S300 been used against American or Israeli planes?

 

[killbill2]

Indeed, I don't think the Russians have the technology to build a credible missile shield. Even the Americans are having trouble with theirs. Plus it's not as if the Russian military has money to spare. They can't even keep their navy running properly......

yea that's true their sub numbers have sharply declined and their fleet is in ruins.not to mention their training level si below the minimum requirement.

 

[Viktor]

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1571/is_16_17/ai_74337128/pg_8
although impressive it does have it's disadvantages
1.) It's highly dependent on these battle management radar's so if those are taken out the system is a goner.
2.)The max engagement altitude of the S300/400 series is about 100,000 feet. As for all defenses the range for intercpting ballistic missiles will be smaller.the small intercept capable range will be overwhelmed by MIRV's.
3.)These battlemanagement radars like all radars have alimit to how many targets they can engage at a time.
4.) factor this+terminal phase for an ICBM is about 30 seconds.
5.) The US has aACM 129's,JASSMS(including ER's), and tomahawks they can use to attack these radars.
6.) with the radar's dsiabled a high altitude EMP should disbale the sam network.

What do you guys think?

True you can neutralize Moscow ABM shield (only existing in the world) but at what cost.Reply!
1. It is not easy job to neutralize Russian menagment radars because they are high protected by multilayes SAMs and probably conceald in bunkers.
2/3.Shield can be overwhelmed but even if it menages to destroy 50 nuclear warheads it means a loat because US has no ABM shield and 50 more nuclear warheads means a loat, besides Russian have world most advanced bunker whitch can in total accomodate 200 000 Russian top scientiest, females etc unlike US and is still as we speak being upgraded. Besides about 90 percent of US population lives in cities and about 45 percent of Russian population lives in cities. You know what that means.:splat Shield has constantly being upgraded.
4) JASSMS dont have enough range to reach such radars as you would have to fight throw entire Russian army and beat them to get to thiese radars. Tomahawk is good but slow missile and is not match for new Russian SAM sistems whitch have all high kill probability against cruise missile.
5. You must realize that in event of a total war masses of ICBM and SLBM as well as EMP should shater all earth and because of that there can be no winers and because of that I hope It will never happen.

 

[Viktor]

I think that it... is difficult to think about it!
Is the USA likely to attack the Russian federation or vice versa?
No
The cold war era has defenitively ended.

Why do you think cold war era is over? Because two old men spiled some ink on some paper. Look SCO organization and what has it done since its estabilishment. Look at the fight to control Midle East and Central Asia and fight for oil and other resorses has only begin. US after the "end" of cold war adopt politics - of denaining any other country economic and military grow so it could chalenge US by all means posibily-- how mutch good can such politics bring, and on the other hand US, Russia and China did not menage to reach an agreement on ban of space armament. So race is on and if you reasrch even a little bit you will fint plenty of resources to suport my claim.
How else can you describe 500-600 Bin US defence budget, or new type of Russian SSBM and SSGN new ICBM and SLBM, SRBMand all other array of conventional weapons or perhaps claims of numerous Chinese generals about day when the war betwen US and China is closing etc - by my opinion Cold war era is in full swing.

 

[killbill2]

True you can neutralize Moscow ABM shield (only existing in the world) but at what cost.Reply!
1. It is not easy job to neutralize Russian menagment radars because they are high protected by multilayes SAMs and probably conceald in bunkers.
2/3.Shield can be overwhelmed but even if it menages to destroy 50 nuclear warheads it means a loat because US has no ABM shield and 50 more nuclear warheads means a loat, besides Russian have world most advanced bunker whitch can in total accomodate 200 000 Russian top scientiest, females etc unlike US and is still as we speak being upgraded. Besides about 90 percent of US population lives in cities and about 45 percent of Russian population lives in cities. You know what that means.:splat Shield has constantly being upgraded.
4) JASSMS dont have enough range to reach such radars as you would have to fight throw entire Russian army and beat them to get to thiese radars. Tomahawk is good but slow missile and is not match for new Russian SAM sistems whitch have all high kill probability against cruise missile.
5. You must realize that in event of a total war masses of ICBM and SLBM as well as EMP should shater all earth and because of that there can be no winers and because of that I hope It will never happen.

Well duh EMp would eventually disbale the radars. However they are hardened so you need a couple of good bursts. Russian sams are impressive but they do have weaknesses. JAssm can get past an S400 and strike at certain targets. Jassm has different variants sucha s a 200,500, and soon a 1,000 nm range. Youa are also not taking into account ACM 129's and SLBM reaction times.Well duh no one will win a nuclear war i was simply trying to see what other people though about the effectiveness of this ABM system.

 

[DoC_FouALieR]

Why do you think cold war era is over?

Because the Berlin Wall has fallen, because the Iron curtain no longer exist, etc etc..
And because the russian Navy do training with Nato Forces...
I was not talking about the arms race that might exist in such countries like China and India. This sort of "new cold war" does not concern the former Warsow pact vs. NATO. But I agree that it has shifted toward the country you mentionned.

 

[Viktor]

Because the Berlin Wall has fallen, because the Iron curtain no longer exist, etc etc..
And because the russian Navy do training with Nato Forces...
I was not talking about the arms race that might exist in such countries like China and India. This sort of "new cold war" does not concern the former Warsow pact vs. NATO. But I agree that it has shifted toward the country you mentionned.

It is not only a matter of China - India arms race, or China - Tajvan - Japan -US those are only potential trigers of a major conflict. Why do you think Russia introduced Topol-M if a cold war is over, or S-400, or SSBM (Borei) or SSGN 885 Severodvinsk class etc - those are all strategic weapons ment to deter pottential agresor - and who might that be if a cold war is over?
And why do you think SCO emerged, times of friendhip with NATO is over - it was 3-4-5 years ago while they where having good relationship , exercise togeather etc - it is all over now.

 

[Viktor]

Well duh EMp would eventually disbale the radars. However they are hardened so you need a couple of good bursts. Russian sams are impressive but they do have weaknesses. JAssm can get past an S400 and strike at certain targets. Jassm has different variants sucha s a 200,500, and soon a 1,000 nm range. Youa are also not taking into account ACM 129's and SLBM reaction times.Well duh no one will win a nuclear war i was simply trying to see what other people though about the effectiveness of this ABM system.

Why do you think JASSM can get pass throw S-400, Buk, Pantrjs, S-300PMU2, Tor - did you check probability hit of such sistem to cruise missiles. And belive me its not small :daz JASSM is great missile but nothing revolutionary Brahmos by my opinion is mutch greater.

 

[DoC_FouALieR]

Why do you think Russia introduced Topol-M if a cold war is over, or S-400, or SSBM (Borei) or SSGN 885 Severodvinsk class etc - those are all strategic weapons ment to deter pottential agresor - and who might that be if a cold war is over?

Because their is a need to replace old systems that are too old to work correctly and are costly to upkeep...
We in France have introduce a new class of SSBN in the late 90's and a new SLBM, the M-51 is going to be fitted on all of our SSBNs in the upcomming year. But AFAIK, we don't run an arms race with any countries...
On the opposite, the Royal Navy doubts about its SSBNs becoming old and perhaps they will never replace them...

And why do you think SCO emerged, times of friendhip with NATO is over - it was 3-4-5 years ago while they where having good relationship , exercise togeather etc - it is all over now.

No I don't think so, in 2005 there have been two major exercice between French Navy and Russian Navy, involving major unit like ASW Destroyer, and even an Akula II SSN, who stayed at Brest for a couple of days. That is the first time ever that a nuclear russian boat went in France. Just look at this picture

 

[killbill2]

Why do you think JASSM can get pass throw S-400, Buk, Pantrjs, S-300PMU2, Tor - did you check probability hit of such sistem to cruise missiles. And belive me its not small :daz JASSM is great missile but nothing revolutionary Brahmos by my opinion is mutch greater.

Yes but bhramos isn't that stealthy and will obviosuly give the enemy plenty of warning. i wasn't speaking of hitting them i was talking of sneaking past them to hit targets.

 

[Viktor]

Because their is a need to replace old systems that are too old to work correctly and are costly to upkeep...
We in France have introduce a new class of SSBN in the late 90's and a new SLBM, the M-51 is going to be fitted on all of our SSBNs in the upcomming year. But AFAIK, we don't run an arms race with any countries...
On the opposite, the Royal Navy doubts about its SSBNs becoming old and perhaps they will never replace them...


No I don't think so, in 2005 there have been two major exercice between French Navy and Russian Navy, involving major unit like ASW Destroyer, and even an Akula II SSN, who stayed at Brest for a couple of days. That is the first time ever that a nuclear russian boat went in France. Just look at this picture

Hm - great pic -
We have different opinions. Time will tell.

 

[Viktor]

Yes but bhramos isn't that stealthy and will obviosuly give the enemy plenty of warning. i wasn't speaking of hitting them i was talking of sneaking past them to hit targets.

Stealth can be detected It is not invinsible it is only matter of whitch radar is being used, and all states Russia , China, India are working on radar that can detect stealth, so by my opinion it is mutch batter to rely on speed.