If the Third Reich fought the Vietnam War

Cutaway

New Member
What would it be like if the Third Reich fought the Vietnam War and who would win?, Which equipment and weapons would be used?

This alternative history scenario is set the same time the US served there, Circa 1960-1975. Pre 1960 history may not concern much in this thread but can still be for political movements.

Anyones ideas of this scenario are welcome and are free to post on this thread.

Just a thought, Here is my view of what-if:

1945-1960: Europe is completley occupied but a few resistance groups still occur, Britain/USA/USSR still exist but have gave up fighting WW2, Britain/Commonwealth/USA become allies with Germany against the USSR/Cuba/China/North Korea & Vietnam etc

The Cold War still starts but in a totally different way.

The what-was French Indochina which fell into the hands of communisim with the aid of USSR/China? became North Vietnam, Nazi Germany decide to help South Vietnam(Which may be also aided from Imperial Japan?) from communist uprising

Remember: Concentrate mostly on the Third Reich vs North Vietnam.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Remember Dien Bien Phu? Most of the "french" soldiers were actually ex-wehrmacht, and allegedly a high proportion were "rebadged" SS. It didn't do them much good.

Military might is only useful if its supported by political will and intent. even then it can only achieve so much. Look at Chechnya
 

PullerRommel

New Member
I think there is to many variables. Weapons, Equipment, Technology, countries. Would japan still control what it did control. The war ended in '45 so is Hitler still leader or who is? What do they still control what is the state of there forces etc.
 

PullerRommel

New Member
In Vietnam we are also facing the whole country. Don't think that onlythe north was communist they mostly were until South Vietnam guy decided to stop elections when he was going to lose. Thats why the VC were succesfl the people were on there side.
 

merocaine

New Member
Remember Dien Bien Phu? Most of the "french" soldiers were actually ex-wehrmacht, and allegedly a high proportion were "rebadged" SS. It didn't do them much good.
Thats pure rubbish and slanderous to boot, Why dont you look up the order of battle, The legion never made up more than 30% 40% of the troops in Dien Bien Phu, and of the Legion the German contingent never made up more then 30%. The whole "germans in the Legion" thing was Black propaganda spread by the Communists.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Thats pure rubbish and slanderous to boot, Why dont you look up the order of battle, The legion never made up more than 30% 40% of the troops in Dien Bien Phu, and of the Legion the German contingent never made up more then 30%. The whole "germans in the Legion" thing was Black propaganda spread by the Communists.
How about learning to respond appropriately. My original sources was a reference by Skorzeny when he was interviewed in the mid 60's and then an article on ex soldiers of the wehrmacht.

Now they may be wrong, but I wouldn't state it unless I had what I thought was a credible source.

Unlike a few in here, I'm not prone to hysterical commentary and throw away lines.
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Remember Dien Bien Phu? Most of the "french" soldiers were actually ex-wehrmacht, and allegedly a high proportion were "rebadged" SS. It didn't do them much good.

Military might is only useful if its supported by political will and intent. even then it can only achieve so much. Look at Chechnya
I thought that there was only two battalions of ex German SS that were introduced and hired by the South Vietnamese government and this was done after Dien Bien Phu, they were pretty much hand picked by the French Legion though.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I thought that there was only two battalions of ex German SS that were introduced and hired by the South Vietnamese government and this was done after Dien Bien Phu, they were pretty much hand picked by the French Legion though.
Some of the stories I have heard bandied about was that a number of ex-Wehrmacht personnel had joined the Foreign Legion and were posted to French Indochina. The book Memory, Empire and Postcolonialism Legacies of French Colonialism, edited by Alec G. Hargreaves mentioned that French colonials would often hear German being spoken when encountering Legionnaires on the streets of Saigon.

I would imagine at least some of the German Legionnaires might have remained in Vietnam after the French left.

-Cheers
 

PullerRommel

New Member
This is from "The History of TheFrenchForeign Legion" by David Jordan.

"... Up to 60 percent of the legion was of German origin during the Indo-China War. However, most recruits weren ot SS veterans, for the simple reason that the Legion delibrately excluded such men. Many of the Germans were, in fact, simply desperate young men trying to escape the privations of Post-War Germany, and a large proportion (Just over 40 per cent) were under the age of 21. Rather than the brutal SS veterans so popularly believed to have fought in Indo-China, the legion drew upon a mix of former soldiers from regular units and raw youngsters."
 
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gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
This is from "The History of TheFrenchForeign Legion" by David Jordan.

"... Up to 60 percent of the legion was of German origin during the Indo-China War. However, most recruits weren ot SS veterans, for the simple reason that the Legion delibrately excluded such men. Many of the Germans were, in fact, simply desperate young men trying to escape the privations of Post-War Germany, and a large proportion (Just over 40 per cent) were under the age of 21. Rather than the brutal SS veterans so popularly believed to have fought in Indo-China, the legion drew upon a mix of former soldiers from regular units and raw youngsters."
Thanks for an independant source. ;) gf
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Some of the stories I have heard bandied about was that a number of ex-Wehrmacht personnel had joined the Foreign Legion and were posted to French Indochina. The book Memory, Empire and Postcolonialism Legacies of French Colonialism, edited by Alec G. Hargreaves mentioned that French colonials would often hear German being spoken when encountering Legionnaires on the streets of Saigon.

I would imagine at least some of the German Legionnaires might have remained in Vietnam after the French left.

-Cheers
This is what I have heard also, that there were ex Wehrmacht soldiers, numbers have been debated for quite awhile now. I have in my reference library a book that I have read inregards to the ex SS soldier debate, primary book is called the Devils guard that has been followed up with two additional books, not bad reading if you can overlook the anti communist sediment that the book is full of, this is where I have read about a secret bond that was put together between former SS men and the South Vietnamese government, apparently this was set up by the French Legion.

Before some of you decide to put a target reticle on me, please note that I do realize that this has been a ongoing debate for many, many years, also I do not agree with everything that was written in the book that I made reference to, so take it easy.
 

PullerRommel

New Member
I was reading somewhere, most likely, my FFL history book. That ex-Wermacht (IDK about ex-SS) were sent to the SVA and supplied by French.
 

riksavage

Banned Member
Going back to the original question reference the Third Reich fighting and possibly winning the Vietnam War, they would have been at a severe disadvantage from the very start. Unlike the Japanese, Commonwealth and US, the German Army had little or no jungle fighting experience. In addition Hitler was not keen on SF / small unit style tactics similar to those employed to great success by the Chindits, SAS and Ranger units (Burma and Malayan Emergency campaigns – 40’s and 50’s).

Following on from Crete Hitler was against what he perceived as wasteful independent action by elite troops, he believed in employing terror and intimidation by police, SS and other Para-military units as a way of dealing with asymmetric warfare exemplified by his approach to partisan campaigns in the Ukraine, Balkans and France. Hearts and minds was never an option in his eyes. Considering Hitler micro-managed everything I believe he would have caused horrendous loss of life on all sides.

Also assuming that Germany won the war in Europe they would have relied on Japan to deal with any South East Asian issues. And to be honest the only way Japan would have tolerated German forces in Vietnam would have been if they had no other option. One of Japans main arguments for going to war was to rid Asia of white Colonialism, so allowing German forces to replace the French and British would have gone against their own expansionist doctrine.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Military might is only useful if its supported by political will and intent. even then it can only achieve so much. Look at Chechnya
Chechnya is a relative success. I'm assuming you mean the second war, because during the first the political will wasn't there, and neither was the money.
 

X6958

New Member
A more likley situation is a three-way war between:
1. The Third Reich, Britain and USA (now allies of germany)
2. Japan
3. Communists (USSR, Red China, various communist organizations)

Germany would be betrayed by Japan on the basis that they are going to expand into Asia, ridding asia of europeans was one of the driving factors behind Japanese involvment in ww2, this would lead to some re-structuring of Hitler's racial ladder, adding Asians as "degenerates." Histler's policies would win him no friends in Asia or communist movements in Europe. The eventual outcome could be seen as such:
-Eventually Japanese forces wear away European influence, leading to a conservative Asian Empire
-USA and UK would not go down with Germany, and would likley create a fascist sphere
-Communism would arise in Europe as a combination fo gradual resistance and Japanese military prowess destroys the third reich. This could create a power struggle between Stalinists of the USSR and actual Marxists (excuse the politics)
 

Combatintman

New Member
Dien Bien Phu French Order of Battle (Infantry Only):
II/1 RCP
1 BPC
6 BPC
8 BPC
1 BEP
2 BEP
5 BPVN
I/2 REI
III/3 REI
I/13 DBLE
III/13 DBLE
II/1 RTA
III/3 RTA
V/7 RTA
1/4 RTM
BT 2
BT 3
1 GMPT
RCP = Regiment de Chasseurs Parachutistes
BPC = Bataillon de Parachutistes Coloniaux
BEP = Bataillon Etranger de Parachutistes
BPVN = Bataillon de Parachutistes Vietnamiens
REI = Regiment de Etranger de Infanterie
DBLE = Demi-Brigade de Legion Etrangere
RTA = Regiment de Tirailleures Algeriens
RTM = Regiment de Tiraillueres Marocains
BT = Bataillon Thai
GMPT = Groupment Mobile des Partisans Thai

So of that then there were:

6 Foreign Legion Battalions
3 Colonial Battalions (many of which were filled with Vietnamese)
1 Vietnamese Battalion
3 Algerian Battalions
1 Moroccan Battalion
2 Thai Battalions
1 Thai Partisan Unit

Ignoring the Thai Partisan unit then there were 17 x Battalions of which only 6 were Foreign Legion. To suggest that these Foreign Legion Battalions were filled largely with ex Waffen SS/Wehrmacht types is errant nonsense as quite clearly is the assertion that the majority of the defenders at Dien Bien Phu were Foreign Legion.

Source:

The Last Valley by Martin Windrow

ISBN 0 304 36692 7

Pages 701 - 702 (Appendix 2)
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
To suggest that these Foreign Legion Battalions were filled largely with ex Waffen SS/Wehrmacht types is errant nonsense as quite clearly is the assertion that the majority of the defenders at Dien Bien Phu were Foreign Legion.

Source:

The Last Valley by Martin Windrow

ISBN 0 304 36692 7

Pages 701 - 702 (Appendix 2)
Thanks for providing another source.

On another note however, other posters provided other info from what they also regarded as trusted sources at a point in time, so they took it on good faith. Just because their sources have been challenged doesn't warrant the "errant nonsense" filler.

You can make a point without having to colour it up.
 

Combatintman

New Member
Fair enough.

Another source you might try is Street Without Joy by Bernard Fall. Pages 279 to 286 go into some detail regarding the involvement of the Foreign Legion in the Indochina war and the relative numbers of Germans in their ranks. Fall and Windrow corroborate each other regarding the Legion involvement at Dien Bien Phu.

Which is good enough for me.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Fair enough.

Another source you might try is Street Without Joy by Bernard Fall. Pages 279 to 286 go into some detail regarding the involvement of the Foreign Legion in the Indochina war and the relative numbers of Germans in their ranks. Fall and Windrow corroborate each other regarding the Legion involvement at Dien Bien Phu.

Which is good enough for me.
Cheers, thx for that. I'll try and hunt it down and have a geck when free...
 
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