How many tanks should a tank platoon have?

bob2006

New Member
In most modern armies, the standard post WWII five tank platoon organization has been changed to either four or three vehicles per platoon/troop. The original concept behind the five tank platoon was to have two separate fire and movement sections, with the platoon leader joining one at will, as required by the combat situation.

The Israeli army, which has had substantial experience with tank warfare in the post WWII period, has shifted from five to four and finally three tanks per basic platoon.

The German Bundeswehr has shifted from four tanks in its platoons and 13 Leopard 2A4 tanks (4 tanks x 3 platoons + 1 command tank) per company used under Army Structure 3, to its new 13 Leopard 2A6 company with only three tanks in each platoon (3 tanks x 4 platoons + 1 command tank).

The basic Russian T-72/80/90 tank platoon is still their traditional three vehicle formation, however, there are reports of a new concept being examined, under which a five AFV platoon will be established, with four tanks and a BMPT as the fifth vehicle.

The British army tank squadron has a 14 tank structure with four troops (platoons) of 3 Challenger II tanks and two tanks in the HQ section. These four troop squadrons give the squadron leaders the choice of forming two-tank sections, although in some cases with the two tanks coming from different platoons, without creating too much degradation in the squadron command structure, or leaving single tanks vulnerable, as might happen with a three-tank by three platoon company.
 
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kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The German Bundeswehr has shifted from four tanks in its platoons and 13 Leopard 2A4 tanks (4 tanks x 3 platoons + 1 command tank) per company used under Army Structure 3, to its new 13 Leopard 2A6 company with only three tanks in each platoon (3 tanks x 4 platoons + 1 command tank).
The Bundeswehr only used the 3-tank platoons in Army Structures 5 and 5N. They shifted back to 4-tank platoons with Army Structure HNA (in 2003), and use a two-tank company command section in the Reaction Units (RK), and one command tank in the Reinforcement Units (VK). VK units have the "missing tank" officially in reserve, like some other unit parts (e.g. the company's field maintenance section). RK and VK units are mixed at bataillon level (Type I/III Bat: 2x RK, 1x VK; Type II/IV Bat: 1x RK, 2x VK). Army Structure HNA is still the current structure.

The next structure is Army Structure 2010, with the army in transformation to that right now. Under Army Structure 2010, the bataillons will be differentiated into Intervention Units (EK) and Stabilization Units (SK).
Internal structure for both is the same as for the RK companies above, with 3 platoons of 4 tanks and a 2-tank command section. EK units have a two-tank bataillon command, SK units a single command tank.
EK units will all be equipped with Leopard 2A6 (three bats), SK units have 2A5 (two bats) or 2A6 (one bat). Maintenance Replacement Reserve and centralized training units (Tank School, Maneuver Training Center, Reserve Training Center etc) are equipped with Leopard 2A4, 2A5 and 2A6.
 

nero

New Member
A-l-d

The Bundeswehr only used the 3-tank platoons in Army Structures 5 and 5N. They shifted back to 4-tank platoons with Army Structure HNA (in 2003), and use a two-tank company command section in the Reaction Units (RK), and one command tank in the Reinforcement Units (VK). VK units have the "missing tank" officially in reserve, like some other unit parts (e.g. the company's field maintenance section). RK and VK units are mixed at bataillon level (Type I/III Bat: 2x RK, 1x VK; Type II/IV Bat: 1x RK, 2x VK). Army Structure HNA is still the current structure.

The next structure is Army Structure 2010, with the army in transformation to that right now. Under Army Structure 2010, the bataillons will be differentiated into Intervention Units (EK) and Stabilization Units (SK).
Internal structure for both is the same as for the RK companies above, with 3 platoons of 4 tanks and a 2-tank command section. EK units have a two-tank bataillon command, SK units a single command tank.
EK units will all be equipped with Leopard 2A6 (three bats), SK units have 2A5 (two bats) or 2A6 (one bat). Maintenance Replacement Reserve and centralized training units (Tank School, Maneuver Training Center, Reserve Training Center etc) are equipped with Leopard 2A4, 2A5 and 2A6.
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active-laser-defence, yup, thats the word

in the present scenario if a tank dosent have avtive-laser-defence, then it dosent matter, how many a platoon has

helicopters today r much more advanced, they can wiupe out an entire platoon in minutes if the tank dosent have active-laser-defence

also there is a great asymetrical threat today, than ever before!

case in point is the recent israeli-lebanon conflict, where even the merkava was almost impotent


The 9M-133-kornet has been proliferated en-masse!!

even iranians r taking out MIA2s in BAGHDAD!!!


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Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Kato you are fast. :)

In my opinion 4 tanks per platoon is better at platoon level than three.
It makes maneuvering under own cover much easier with two tanks on observation while two other maneuver. With three tanks you can for example just move one tank while two are on observation.
And it is easier to break up a platoon into two two tank sections if necessary.

The problem is that by using 4 tanks per platoon you reduce the number of maneuver elements of the company commander.

So the question is in my eyes more if you can live with reducing your company maneuver elements for better individual platoon performance.

IMHO the increased ability of the platoon to move with cover and to split up is worth the missing maneuver element.

I also prefer the two tank command section. That gives you the ability to attach the XOs tank to your accompanying units (for example one mech inf platoon, combat engineers, FAC/FAO, medics, etc.) for herding them while the company commander is free from these tasks.
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Jup, battlefield management systems can increase the ability of commanders to get a better view of what is going on as long as higher command structures not tend to micromanage every step.

And yes concentration of forces is a key of mechanized warfare (And not only there).

But the ability to use advanced battelfield management systems doesn't really influences the decision wether to use three or four tank platoons.
 

Manfred

New Member
I think that the number of Tanks is a platoon is also a relection of how many good platoon commanders you think you have. The fewer you have, the larger your platoons will be, in order to make for fewer platoons.

As for Nero... where to start?
Okay, Iranians blowing up M-1s in Baghdad; burying a half-dozen Artillery shells and detonating them when a tank goes by is not an indication of technical prowess.

Helecopters are a threat... to an army with no command of the air, and Tank formations that have no anti-aircraft weapons. :rolleyes:

As for active lazer defence; that is a ways down the road, look it up.
 

Mumbatik

New Member
Tank Formation and the future of mobile warfare

This is just my opinion. If a mobile unit have anti-aircraft capabillities then the threat to from the air can easily be countered. The order of battle bellow is just a hypothesis in the need of a mobile and yet powerful battalion combat team. The term battalion combat team was introduced by the Philippine army as the country have sent 3 BCT into Korea during the Korean War.

Battalion Combat Team:

Tank Company:
• Command Tank
• Four Tank Platoon
• 17 Advanced Main Battle Tank
Tank Platoon:
• Four Advanced Main Battle Tank

Combat Vehicle Company:
• 88 Combat Vehicles (tracked) are assigned with the Tank Battalion.
o 22 Combat Vehicles are assigned per Tank Company
 5 Combat Vehicles are assigned per Tank Platoon
 2 Combat Vehicles are tasked for Reconnaissance Role

Combat Vehicle Infantry Company:
• 36 Combat Vehicles (wheeled) are assigned per Infantry Company.
• 9 Combat Vehicles are assigned per Infantry Platoon.

Infantry Company:
o Four Infantry Platoons
o Eight 2-man 50 cal. Machinegun and automatic grenade launcher teams (vehicle mounted)
o Four 2-man mortar team (vehicle mounted)
• Infantry Platoons:
o Four 12-man line squads
 Two 6-man fire team
• Team Leader
• Communication Expert
• SAW Gunner
• Machine Gunner
• Sniper
• Multi-Purpose Rifleman
o Two 2-man 50 cal. Machinegun and automatic grenade launcher teams (vehicle-mounted)
o One 2-man mortar team (vehicle-mounted)
o Command element of a platoon leader, communication expert, medic, and 2 quartermasters for the supplies of the platoon in a command vehicle
o All but Heavy Weapons including the command element are mounted in 9 Combat Vehicles per platoon from the Combat Vehicles Battalion

Artillery Battery:
o Six Self Propelled Advance Automatic Howitzers capable of firing 12 accurate shots per minute.
o A Command Vehicle:
 Battery Commander, Communication Expert, Medic, and 2 Quartermasters for the supply of the artillery battery
o Two Munitions Haulers

403 men total effective

In regards of anti-insurgency, I believe that the scout-rangers tactics in the Philippines are far more effective in combating such a threat and in the model above reflects the use of a mobile infantry troops supported by IFVs and tanks. If the enemy does not rest until the troops or its populace is totally destroyed, then it shall be given the same treatment. That sort of enemies shall be exterminated. The operation is Basilan is an example of this and that led to the death of an Abu-Sayaf commander, Abu-Sabayah. Well, thank you for your time. :D
 

Mumbatik

New Member
.

active-laser-defence, yup, thats the word

in the present scenario if a tank dosent have avtive-laser-defence, then it dosent matter, how many a platoon has

helicopters today r much more advanced, they can wiupe out an entire platoon in minutes if the tank dosent have active-laser-defence

also there is a great asymetrical threat today, than ever before!

case in point is the recent israeli-lebanon conflict, where even the merkava was almost impotent


The 9M-133-kornet has been proliferated en-masse!!

even iranians r taking out MIA2s in BAGHDAD!!!


.
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Any fighting men who have the determination to stop its enemy will achieve such results. That is known already in the war in Mindanao.

Why the Philippines is the example of counter-insurgency done right
Both the Philippine counter-insurgencies proved to be successful. Given the results attained, it would appear that the counter-insurgency efforts were more similar than dissimilar. It is illuminating to examine how the counter-insurgencies were different. The counterinsurgencies were different in ways that proved to be largely irrelevant to the success of the effort. The counter-insurgency at the turn of the century was lead by United States forces who recruited locals to the effort, mostly to serve in civil positions and the local constabulary. The later counter-insurgency was an effort manned exclusively by Filipinos with minor US logistical and intelligence support, fighting an indigenous communist front made up of other Filipinos. The insurgency following the Spanish American War was a collection of loosely linked nodes operating independently, without coordination and with only nominal allegiance to the titular head, Aguinaldo. The Communists in the later insurgency were hyper-organized and controlled although there is the possibility this organization was more apparent on paper at NPA headquarters than on the ground.

Given the differences in who was leading the counter-insurgency, the US in one case, the Philippine Army in the other and the gap in time between the conflicts, it is striking how similar the efforts actually were. Both counter-insurgencies saw the greatest success when it came to rely on dispersed, independently operated units. Both counter-insurgency efforts made a priority of establishing local political control that had a chance to flourish under the protection of arms. Both sought to destroy those elements of the insurgency that were not willing to come under control of the government. The similarities in the two strategies separated by more than seventy years would make it seem that that commanders were operating out the same OPLAN or at least from the same doctrine. However, the counter-insurgency leaders did not adhere to any OPLAN and they had no access to doctrine. The counter-insurgencies in both cases made a virtue of necessity, and by doing so, independently arrived at the most effective strategy at fighting insurgents.

Regarding the issue of doctrine, the Philippine Army commanders engaged in the fight expressly denied that they were conducting the fight in adherence to US Army doctrine. Victor Corpus, a Philippine Army officer who defected to the Communists then returned to fight the insurgency, denied that he had learned anything from US Army doctrine. Instead, he adapted to the situation and what they learned from fighting the war. In the words of Corpus: "we drew mostly upon my experience. We didn't refer to any books. We had read the US manuals on low intensity conflicts, but we blamed those manuals for introducing COIN doctrines that only aggravated the situation. They apply conventional efforts to an unconventional situation. In particular, traditional civic action is a mere palliative. It does not go to the root causes of the problem, to the lack of democracy.”1

To Corpus, the crucial difference in successful vice un-successful counter-insurgency strategy was the sincerity and permanence of efforts to institutionalize democracy and address the legitimate concerns of the "grievance guerrillas."2 The strategy that Corpus advocated resulted in a "feeling among the populace that nonviolent avenues were available for interest articulation and realization." With Corpus and others in the Philippine Army pushing for sincere democratic reforms, people in the countryside were convinced to give up the insurgency. "They had given up precisely because the hardline approach.3

Was the fact that the Philippine Army counter-insurgency strategy so closely mirrored that of US Army counter-insurgency efforts prior to the Vietnam War-vintage COIN doctrine dismissed by Corpus, merely a coincidence? Did the winning strategy transcend the Philippine theater, or is there something unique in Filipino psychology or terrain that channeled strategy in one particular way? These appear to be unexamined questions. There does not seem to be any literature that would support or deny the theory that there is something in Filipino psychology that would result in one particular type of effective counter-insurgency strategy. Rather, it appears that the fact that the same strategy arose some eighty years apart, albeit in the same geographic location, is evidence that the counter-insurgency doctrine hit upon independently decades apart, is the appropriate way to counter “grievance guerrillas.”

The strategies of the successful counterinsurgency that arose independently find support in the US Marine Corps Small Wars Manual. The Marines who wrote that document noticed the imperative to contest insurgents with all available means with an emphasis on the moral and psychological. “The motive in small wars is not material destruction. It. is usually a project dealing with the social, economic, and political development of the people. It is of primary importance that the fullest benefit be derived from the psychological aspects of the situation. That implies a serious study of the people, their racial, political, religious, and mental development.”4 Serious study of foreign people takes time for a foreign counter-insurgency force, such as the United States Army in the Philippines. As for the Philippine Army, they had a head-start since they were of the same culture and psychology of the insurgents they were battling. Since the Philippine Army battalions were also living in the same environment as the insurgency they fought, those soldiers became all the more attuned to the culture and therefore, all the more effective.

Other successful counter-insurgencies share many of the characteristics of the Philippine campaigns. The Malay Emergency and the current US campaign in Iraq both resemble, in broad terms, the traits apparent in the Philippine counter-insurgency. Richard Clutterbuck, in his book The Long, Long War, identified the keys to the successful counter-insurgency in Malaysia: "Protection of the people and the government structure is essential. An extensive police force at the village level is also required."5 Clutterbuck’s description of the successful counter-insurgency are similar to those in the Philippines and those currently in effect by the US Army in Iraq.

There is little doubt that the Philippine Army, however fortuitously, went about their counter-insurgency in the right way. The key, which went un-remarked by Marks is that the Philippine Army had time to make sure their counter-insurgency worked. In the words of General in the current counter-insurgency fight in Iraq, “Counterinsurgency is a long-term proposition. The ability to fight counterinsurgency requires time and building-block approach for learning…”6 The reason the Philippine Army had the time to make their strategy worked is self evident; the government and the insurgents had no where else to go. Both sides would fight until the war ended one way or the other. Time is a luxury that foreign counter-insurgency forces do not always have, whereas indigenous counter-insurgencies can fight until resolution. However, so long as the counter-insurgency has the time to prosecute the strategy, the doctrine will be validated. If for some reason, the counter-insurgency must leave the field, the strategy will fail.

Ultimately, the Philippine Army had the time to grind down the Philippine Insurgency with a home-grown strategy that focused on the psychology of the insurgency and addressed the concerns of “grievance guerrillas.” Indigenous forces addressed the psychological needs of the grievance guerrillas and had the time to grind down and destroy recalcitrant revolutionaries. This is the essence of a counter-insurgency done right.

Notes:
1. Marks, Thomas. Maoist Insurgency Since Vietnam (London: Frank Cass) 2003. Pg 136.

2. Ibid. Pg 133.

3. Ibid.

4. United States Marine Corps Publications Small Wars Manual (Washington: United States Government) 1940. Pg 18.

5. Clutterbuck, Richard. From The Long Long War, Quoted in "Insurgency and Counter-insurgency: Lessons from Malaya" in Ohio University

6. Gaskin, Maj.Gen. Walter. “ DoD News Briefing with Maj. Gen. Gaskin from Iraq July 20, 2007” US Department of Defense News
 

ltb

New Member
surly the amount of tanks depends on

the quality of the tank
What a state plans to achieve with its armed forces
How armoured units are utilised within the armed forces
The logistical and combat support that unit has availible to it within the force structure
to board bracket and aprorate or optimum amount of tanks per platoon for the worlds armies is a bit of stretch
 

Mumbatik

New Member
surly the amount of tanks depends on

the quality of the tank
What a state plans to achieve with its armed forces
How armoured units are utilised within the armed forces
The logistical and combat support that unit has availible to it within the force structure
to board bracket and aprorate or optimum amount of tanks per platoon for the worlds armies is a bit of stretch
True, however one must take account experience, training, determination, discipline, equipment, and over all sheer will power. War is not won by high tech equipment alone but also by persevance, determination, and the will to go on fighting.
 

ltb

New Member
True, however one must take account experience, training, determination, discipline, equipment, and over all sheer will power. War is not won by high tech equipment alone but also by persevance, determination, and the will to go on fighting.

that is very true for for winning a war, not for force make up though i do most definatly see your point, but we are dealling with force structure which is a discition made at the policy level of analysis, rather that strategic and bellow, not that i want to detract from you point in the slightest
 

Mumbatik

New Member
I will say that depending on the capability of a tank, there should be 4 tank per tank platoon. The reason behind that is the finger 4 theory that is used in the air for the airforce. One tank can be targeted but the second tank will be able to defeat it and save the tank being targeted.

It is only my humble opinion and also from what I have noticed in armored warfare.
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Germany generally uses three maneuver elements (of two units) in infantry-support and anti-tank platoons.

Including for the Anti-Tank Platoons with MBTs (M48 or Leo 1) in the Territorialheer during the Cold War. Three maneuver elements of two tanks plus one command tank in those platoons.

The same arrangement of three maneuver elements of two units is used throughout the Bundeswehr (sometimes with, often without the command element) e.g. for anti-tank, NBC recon, infantry fire support, artillery, mine-launchers.

Mechanized Units (IFVs, MBTs, SPAD) are more like the exception to it (another exception is general Recce, which tends to use 5 maneuver elements of two units).
 

A.Mookerjee

Banned Member
The role of tanks has changed. In the Second World War, there were no Apache helicopter gunships. Tanks are basically anti-infantry weapons platforms. In the Second World War, the infantry could not avoid tanks. Now, before the tank can reach the infantry, it may be destroyed. Now, there are vehicle carriers which have guided anti tank missiles.
 

Tavarisch

New Member
The role of tanks has changed. In the Second World War, there were no Apache helicopter gunships. Tanks are basically anti-infantry weapons platforms. In the Second World War, the infantry could not avoid tanks. Now, before the tank can reach the infantry, it may be destroyed. Now, there are vehicle carriers which have guided anti tank missiles.
Guided missiles don't work if you've got thick aerosol smoke deployers that react when it is lazed by a beam-emitter. It also doesn't work if you've got IR jammers that deflect heat-guided missile threats. APCs are not armored enough and the usual range of their missiles falls below that of tank cannon fire. Especially that of the Soviet/Russian T72/80/90 tanks which can fire ATGMs at targets nearly 4 km away.

Ground-based AA wipe out short-to-far-range aircraft threats. A Tunguska can wipe out an Apache. A Vulcan can wipe out a Hind.

Tanks are far from reaching their obsolescence.

Oh, and the answer to the tank platoon question.

I think the Russian one is a good concept, though having 5 vehicles at a time is gonna make maneuvers quite hard, much more so if you are in a city. However, I understand the need for the fifth vehicle, an Infantry Fighting Vehicle like the BMP-T.

In this case, 4 tanks would be ideal. As some suggest, two can observe and provide cover while the other 2 provide flanking maneuvers.
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
It seems to me that the question is more about tactics of the tank platoon rather than the aggregate number of vehicles in it.

Wehrmacht five-tank platoon was originally a mixed platoon with an infantry support weapon included. This created three elements or two pairs and a single, but pretty much using fire-move-overwatch tactics of the German infantry. Losses during combat meant that only rarely was this replicated in the one-type platoons of PzIVs and PzV later, with Wehrmacht tank platoons on average being 3-4 anyway. Later on the functional tactics of a tank platoon almost always included tank destroyers and infantry (sometimes mounted), but from the armoured point of view the effective tank team in the Wehrmacht became a mixed tank-SPgun platoon of up to 7-8 vehicles, with 2-3 using overwatch/ambush positions. The usual armoured kampfgruppe was however a company/battalion group of around 20-30 armoured vehicles.

Soviet tree-tank platoon evolved though the very simple idea that inexperienced tank platoon commanders could only handle tanks in the basic infantry section (three elements) mode of fire-move-overwatch. Keep in mind though that in the Red Army the tactical unit of employment in an armoured offensive was not the platoon, but a battalion, advancing by companies. Later in the war sp-guns were added to the mix, so effective platoon tactics would have included three tanks and at least one tank destroyer in the overwatch position, although it seems to me that even in 1945 Red Army still fought in company formations, with a full company in this case being augmented by 2-4 SP guns, i.e. moving by platoons in four teams (at full strength), with tank destroyers exploiting the terrain in what capacity they could, totalling perhaps 20-30 vehicles.
The Soviet Army phased out tank destroyers in its wisdom by thinking that more tanks is better. Given the low silhouette of the Soviet tanks there seems little grounds to disagree on. The creation of the BMPs meant that the tank platoon team would now be on par with the Soviet wartime nemesis of the Panzergrenader kampfgruppen. With such a combined arms team at platoon level, the tank platoon effectively numbered six vehicles. The thinking there is that its not what is a tank, but what can kill a tank that matters, and this included the Sagger. I can't remember what the Soviet Army tactic was for a combined arms platoon movements, but it seems to me that moving by three teams of two mixed elements tank/BMP would be a good solution. It didn't matter much since advanced detachments in a tactical independent movement were rarely less than a tank company when tanks were used, meaning a tactical group (when all others included) of again perhaps up to 20 vehicles.

The American five-tank platoon was taken from the Wehrmacht organisation via the manual sent over by LTC J.C. Crockett. Reading memoirs it seems that later American tankers used a somewhat different tactic that tried to ensure there were two tanks in the overwatch position, and if possible, two firing, so movement was by-one. However this may have been a local unit practice and not an official doctrine. It was a luxury that no other fighting force in the war was able to replicate. Since it worked for the US Army in that war, they saw no reason to fix something that wasn't broken until economics forced the four-tank platoon with the M1. However, it has to be remembered that US Army tanks rarely if ever ventured anywhere without its supporting infantry and tank destroyers. The effective tank platoon strength in vehicles total was in the region of 20.
This was still the practice IMHO until the end of the Cold War, and the US tank platoon was in effect not four vehicles, but closer to 15 after all the detachments and cross attachments were done and over with.

It has to be remembered that all of the above evolved in the armoured battle combat environment where tanks were expected to engage tanks. Since 1973 few tanks have engaged other tanks as intended. Major tank owning forces have in fact fought their tanks in very 1930s fashion of the attached big infantry support gun.

Where is that M3 when you need one :) It even had a gun at the door level :)
 
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