Go Back   DefenceTalk Forum - Military & Defense Forums > Global Defense & Military > Military Strategy and Tactics

Defense News
Land, Air & Naval Forces






Military Photos
Latest Military Pictures
Defense Reports
Aerospace & Defence


The best strategy to defending Singapore Island

This is a discussion on The best strategy to defending Singapore Island within the Military Strategy and Tactics forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Please see the RSN thread and the news report on " Stealth frigates display firepower ". The RSN and the ...


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old February 19th, 2009   #61
Super Moderator
General
OPSSG's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Singapore
Posts: 3,299
Threads:
Please see the RSN thread and the news report on "Stealth frigates display firepower". The RSN and the RSAF can just plug and play with other navies in ASEAN quickly, if necessary.

To meet the conventional threat presented by Singapore's forces, the aggressor will need to meet and exceed both the RSAF and the RSN operating in the 3 dimensions of: (i) air warfare, (ii) surface warfare, and (iii) underwater warfare dimensions of naval warfare before they can get to shore. At that stage our combined arms divisions (operating as task forces) and rapid deployment division will provide further meet and greet services.

Please also see report on Ex Malapura held on Dec. 10 to 19, 2008.

Last edited by OPSSG; February 19th, 2009 at 06:18 AM.
OPSSG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 19th, 2009   #62
Defense Enthusiast
Sergeant
No Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Pulau Pinang
Posts: 231
Threads:
You know what we SEA countries should do? Make a gigantic Defense Corporation. Each of us will contribute to the development of our armies collectively. We could have our own standardized systems. We can then operate independently of the Westerners.

Essentially, all we have to do is, as Malays would say, "Gabung Tenaga". We should make a joint defense technology developer between us. This would greatly expand our defense market/industry. Instead of relying on one concept than the other, we could make our own. Instead of choosing between a T90 or a Leo 2A6, we could make our own unique tank. We will learn to stand on our two feet.

Of course, in some ways I do not think this would be in the best interests of foreign powers....
Tavarisch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 19th, 2009   #63
Senior Member
Colonel
Ananda's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,572
Threads:
I
Quote:
don't think we can speak with one voice. And whose voice? The problems or solutions within ASEAN must take into the account the interests of Indonesia (and her role as leader). What is in the interest of Indonesia, is not always in the interest of the other ASEAN countries.
Well as Indonesian I can say that's going to be a problem since internally we still can't show exactly what we wants. 50 years on doing what Soekarno or Soeharto wants, means this last 11 years we still groupling on as collectively what we wants...sigghh price of democracy..

Quote:
You need to look at 2 main factors/concepts:

(i) the concept of 'local superiority' and the ability by ASEAN members to establish such local superiority; and

(ii) the ability of the the potential aggressor to project his forces.

When you consider these factors, it would be clear that ASEAN is no pushover. However, ASEAN cannot compete in a long term, full-on war by conventional means alone. Please read the earlier posts and reconsider some of your concepts (they are a bit lopsided ).
Well perhaps I have mistated some of my thinking...however I believe that's about the same on what I mentioned.
If SEA/Asean have to fight conventionally than we do not have long term capabilities, thus resorting to unconventionall means.

I believe all my thingking derived from scenario on defending by self capabilities, without immediate outside help.
Again this a long shoot scenario because for considerable future we still can play between one major power against the other
Perhaps in this scenario I've assumed the potential major powers that wants to carve out SEA will have ability to project forces near simultanaously toward strategic target in SEA (like with what Japan do in WW 2)

Quote:
In the relative scheme of things, ASEAN's defence market is small (so you must look beyond ASEAN as a market) but some countries are trying to develop some capabilities in our respective defence industries.

Thailand's move to buy an Endurance class vessel is a first step to buying within ASEAN.

Yes, we are all not totally self sufficient, because trade is good for our export orientated economies.
[/QUOTE]

Well we're still since collonial era depends on export abilities...it's just that we're moving from raw materials to manufacturing products (although for Indonesia 60% still raw materials).

But that's in my mind what still happen with our defence capabilities...like in collonial era..all SEA still depends much on outside equipments with relatively small local equipments.
When Europe in war, those collonials states have major headheches on preparing defense with sourcing is drying out.
They have enough equipment...but only for short period of time...
Nobody underestimate SEA people on their defensive spirit...but again without significant local defense industry, we still going to be without long term capabilities.

I think we can agree that this 500 million people grouping needs to consolidate their acts soon. With China and India in our door step, either we hold or break to be considered seriously in the future.

Last edited by Ananda; February 19th, 2009 at 05:12 AM.
Ananda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 19th, 2009   #64
Super Moderator
General
OPSSG's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Singapore
Posts: 3,299
Threads:
@Ananda,

I love your post. Thank you for amending the formatting. I'm just going to respond to a small part of the post (mainly to clarify my point of view).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ananda
Well perhaps I have misstated some of my thinking...however I believe that's about the same on what I mentioned.

If SEA/Asean have to fight conventionally than we do not have long term capabilities, thus resorting to unconventional means.

I believe all my thinking derived from scenario on defending by self capabilities, without immediate outside help.
Please forgive me taking a restrictive approach to reading what you wrote, with a view to disagreeing. The intent to my disagreement is really to clarify what I mean.

I have always viewed all wars as 'hybrid' wars (with conventional and unconventional measures). Please watch this American video on a seminar called "How will we fight?". The dichotomy between conventionally and unconventionally warfare is fake and we don't think or operate that way - at the brigade / division levels. Only our traditional infantry battalions are designed to fight conventionally. When the infantry battalions are mechanized, then we will be able to operate more autonomously at lower command levels with the appropriate C4I support.

Please read a little more on hybrid warfare.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ananda
Again this a long shoot scenario because for considerable future we still can play between one major power against the other.
That would be an ideal situation and would also mean that no fighting is required.

We have armed forces to prepare for the worse (that we can imagine) and not the worse that can conceptually happen. The worse that can conceptually happen is a full scale nuclear strike / biological war on us. We in ASEAN have no defence capability against that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ananda
Perhaps in this scenario I've assumed the potential major powers that wants to carve out SEA will have ability to project forces near simultaneously toward strategic target in SEA (like with what Japan do in WW 2)
That's always possible.

Last edited by OPSSG; February 19th, 2009 at 11:56 PM.
OPSSG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 19th, 2009   #65
Senior Member
Colonel
Ananda's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,572
Threads:
Sorry...I know I've forgot something when I see the result.
Ananda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 19th, 2009   #66
Super Moderator
General
OPSSG's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Singapore
Posts: 3,299
Threads:
Singapore is more proficient at irregular/hybrid warfare that any informed observer will give us credit for simply because we do not declassify what we can do. All good special forces do not talk about capability. A component our capability in this area, like Indonesia, is fully professional and not based on conscripts. These are expensive capabilities and they are properly resourced.

In fact, the elites from the TNI train on a regular basis with our elite services (many who are often SEAL/US Ranger trained). So TNI itself knows that Singapore's elite forces are more than capable of hybrid warfare and our elites have the special tools/training.

Swarming also enabled by modern technology and I enclose a link to the New York Times called "The Coming Swarm" by JOHN ARQUILLA who has done work in this area for RAND Corporation (a US think-tank). In many ways, the SAF intends to use swarming tactics against any aggressor. We have the precision technology and we have the will to develop the systems. This much is clear.
OPSSG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 19th, 2009   #67
Super Moderator
General
OPSSG's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Singapore
Posts: 3,299
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tavarisch View Post
You know what we SEA countries should do? Make a gigantic Defense Corporation. Each of us will contribute to the development of our armies collectively. We could have our own standardized systems. We can then operate independently of the Westerners.

Essentially, all we have to do is, as Malays would say, "Gabung Tenaga". We should make a joint defense technology developer between us. This would greatly expand our defense market/industry. Instead of relying on one concept than the other, we could make our own. Instead of choosing between a T90 or a Leo 2A6, we could make our own unique tank. We will learn to stand on our two feet.

Of course, in some ways I do not think this would be in the best interests of foreign powers....
Singapore has a big defence company with US subsidiaries (and I'm not very happy with having only 1 supplier).

So I'm not sure if the region can ever work together like that realistically. The Europeans have done it but they have lots of problems on the work share and efficiency issues.
OPSSG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 19th, 2009   #68
Defense Enthusiast
Sergeant
No Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Pulau Pinang
Posts: 231
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by OPSSG View Post
Singapore has a big defence company with US subsidiaries (and I'm not very happy with having only 1 supplier).

So I'm not sure if the region can ever work together like that realistically. The Europeans have done it but they have lots of problems on the work share and efficiency issues.


You're not happy with having one defense company? Malaysia's defense industry is virtually non-existent.....
Most of the tax goes to duit kopi I guess.

The difference between us and the Europeans : We are more tolerant of each other. If we can further develop our tolerance, maybe we can establish our projected collective defense firm.
Tavarisch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 19th, 2009   #69
Defense Professional / Analyst
General
Waylander's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Kiel, Schleswig-Holstein
Posts: 4,940
Threads:
The ASEAN nations are more tolerant to each other than the Europeans?

And I thought we have the free traveling, free work and a common currency together with an organisation which is decades ahead in regards to a real union compared to the ASEAN countries.

But I could be wrong...
Waylander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 20th, 2009   #70
Super Moderator
General
OPSSG's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Singapore
Posts: 3,299
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Waylander View Post
The ASEAN nations are more tolerant to each other than the Europeans?
Nice question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waylander View Post
And I thought we have the free traveling, free work and a common currency together with an organisation which is decades ahead in regards to a real union compared to the ASEAN countries.
Thanks for pointing this out and good to see you in this thread.

Our younger friend has an interesting perspective on the world. Hopefully he can change the world to be a better place when he grows up.
OPSSG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 20th, 2009   #71
Super Moderator
General
OPSSG's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Singapore
Posts: 3,299
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tavarisch View Post
You're not happy with having one defense company? Malaysia's defense industry is virtually non-existent.....
I was just pointing out that there are problems with our strategy too...

IMHO, Malaysia is trying to develop a modest capability (which is good). The bigger the goal, the greater the scope for corruption. So start small and grow. Take for instance the Matador, it is 'invented' with the help of Germans. So always seek to learn from others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tavarisch View Post
Most of the tax goes to duit kopi I guess.
Corruption exists in all ASEAN countries (including Singapore). It's just the odds of getting caught are very different.

At least 1/3 of ASEAN countries would rank much higher in corruption levels than Malaysia (I have not named them out of courtesy).

I would not be so harsh on Malaysia and your very professional armed forces. Thankfully in the Malaysian thread, there are some very informed discussions ongoing that has enabled me to better understand Malaysia's past procurement decisions and choices. I think Malaysians tend to be harsher on Malaysia than outside observers. Please remember your opposition also has an agenda (against the ruling party and wants to fling mud, when they can).

I don't deny or defend corruption but we must be objective and try to seek out more facts to understand the reason why the acquisition was made. Not all criticism is valid, that was why I initially defended the PT-91M purchase (I am glad that there is more informed participation taking over in that thread).

Last edited by OPSSG; February 20th, 2009 at 05:27 AM.
OPSSG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 20th, 2009   #72
Defense Enthusiast
Sergeant
No Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Pulau Pinang
Posts: 231
Threads:
Just because you have common currency and free traveling doesn't mean you don't hate the other person. There are Frenchmen who still hate Englishmen for some old dispute made during the medieval Era.

There are also Englishmen and Frenchmen that hate Germans for World War 2. Then, there is also Yugoslavia.
Tavarisch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 20th, 2009   #73
Defense Enthusiast
Master Sergeant
No Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 308
Threads:
Quote:
You're not happy with having one defense company? Malaysia's defense industry is virtually non-existent.....
Most of the tax goes to duit kopi I guess.
The domestic military market is not big. IMHO, it is still larger than Malaysia. But it is best to work with just one company where resources and efforts can be directed to produce quality goods. Singapore could have many smaller companies but at the very end, they(all) may not grow large enough to compete internationally as the gestation period within Singapore would be difficult with smaller orders infrequently. The worst thing that could happen is that Singapore is forced to buy from these smaller firms to keep them afloat;albeit with lower quality builds. Also, ST has grown so large domestically that it might no longer be meaningful for another firm to materialize. Especially since ST is owned by the Singapore government. They have been efficient and productive thus far. However, it will become a problem if inefficiency creeps in with just one major firm around. That might happen if the Singapore government becomes inefficient.
Red is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 20th, 2009   #74
Defense Enthusiast
Master Sergeant
No Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 308
Threads:
Quote:
The ASEAN nations are more tolerant to each other than the Europeans?
Asean is not Europe. Rivalries and suspicions are rife. If not for a couple of level headed regional leaders over the years, there might already have been a couple of little wars all over the place. There are a few developing countries, 1 1st world developed country and many third world countries. This is not Europe. To top of it all, they inducted(at the insistence of a certain doctor turned politician whom I loath) a country that has brought more problems to the group than anything else; Burma. It will be a long time before Asean reaches European levels of integration. However, it is nice to see the optimism in posts from prople like OPSG.
Red is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 20th, 2009   #75
Defense Enthusiast
Sergeant
No Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Pulau Pinang
Posts: 231
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red View Post
The domestic military market is not big. IMHO, it is still larger than Malaysia. But it is best to work with just one company where resources and efforts can be directed to produce quality goods. Singapore could have many smaller companies but at the very end, they(all) may not grow large enough to compete internationally as the gestation period within Singapore would be difficult with smaller orders infrequently. The worst thing that could happen is that Singapore is forced to buy from these smaller firms to keep them afloat;albeit with lower quality builds. Also, ST has grown so large domestically that it might no longer be meaningful for another firm to materialize. Especially since ST is owned by the Singapore government. They have been efficient and productive thus far. However, it will become a problem if inefficiency creeps in with just one major firm around. That might happen if the Singapore government becomes inefficient.

So are you saying potential weapon engineers from Malaysia may have to work in Singapore? I do not like the sound of that notion........ It's bad as it is with all the other experts and professionals leaving the country for other opportunities.
Tavarisch is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:23 AM.