Beslan School Raid (Fresh Update)

[Pathfinder-X]

BESLAN, Russia - The three-day hostage siege at a school in southern Russia ended in chaos and bloodshed Friday, after witnesses said Chechen militants set off bombs and Russian commandos stormed the building. Hostages fled in terror, many of them children who were half-naked and covered in blood. Officials estimated the death toll at more than 200.

Early Saturday, 531 people remained hospitalized, including 283 children — 92 of the youngsters in "very grave" condition, health officials said.

Link: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...ussia_school_seizure&cid=518&ncid=716

Video: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/mmedia/apdaily/090304-11v.htm

------------------------------------------------------------------------

As most of you might already know, the tragic ending to the school siege. The reason I opened this topic is to discuss what the Russian soldiers did wrong. And how this mistakes could have been avoided.

A deal was originally reached with the hostage takers to allow ambulance to carry out the bodies of those who have been killed, but as the ambulance approached the building, a bomb went off in the school gym, shortly followed by a second explosion as describe by people at the scene. The hostages, frightend by the explosions, attempted to flee. Several gunmen open fire on the hostages killing and wounding dozens. As a result, soldiers from Russian Interior Ministry returned fire at the terrorist, sparking a gun battle that lasted two hours. In the end, twenty terrorists were killed, four captured, two believed to have escaped along with over two hundred of the hostages dead.(Note: The assault was never planned, this was confirmed by a FSB commander at the scene)

The following pictures from BBC.com will show you what happened during the whole incident.

The stand off
The terrorist stormed in the school on Wednesday, September 1st, taking more than 1,000 childrens and adults hostage. Local authorities and police responded and the stand off begun. The next day, Spetznaz arrives at the scene.

Inside the school gym
Most of the 1,000 hostages were forced to cramp in the school gym, which is only a little bigger than a basketball court. The terrorist taped explosives along the gym walls and ceiling. Periodically the terrorist fire their guns to terrorify the childrens.

The trigger
Just before 0900 GMT, a deal was reached with the hostage takers to allow an ambulance to carry out the dead. A minute later after the paramedics went in to collect the bodies, an explosion and gunfire was heard, and was followed by a second explosion. Hostages stated to panic and ran, and terrorist opened fire on them. Spetznaz responded with gunfire.

The assualt
Spetznaz stormed the school, however, their efforts were slowed down by dozens of parents and relatives who breached the police cordon and added confusion to the situation. Russian President Vladimir Putin later says the decision to go in was unplanned and taken after the attackers started shooting at children. At 1005 GMT, Russian commanders report that their troops are nearly in full command of the building, but the gunfire continues. At 1040, three armoured personnel carriers with troops approach the school. New blasts are heard as commandos blow holes in walls to allow hostages to escape. At around 1200, sappers begin demining the school buildings and grounds.

The escape
As the troops assaulted, half naked childrens began to run away from the building. Some were carried out by adults. Those who are not seriously hurt are desperate for water. They are first treated at a field hospital set up nearby. Military and civilian ambulances, as well as civilian cars commandeered by soldiers, are used to take the injured to different hospitals. Later, hundreds of bodies, many of them children, are found in the debris of the school gym.

The end
In the confusion that follows the storming of the school, a group of attackers manages to flee, apparently by mixing in with hostages and relatives flooding the area.
Some of the attackers reportedly head south and take refuge in a nearby house where they are surrounded by special forces and later killed. Three others apparently flee to the school basement from where they continue to fire at the troops until they are captured alive on Friday evening. On Saturday, Russian security forces say 27 militants were killed at the school. But there are still contradictory reports as to whether any of those who escaped are still on the run.

In my opinion, the commandos made several fatal errors, I'll list them below.

1. Russian authorities failed to clear the scene of bystanders and secure it, which cause alot of confusion during the gun battle and allowed some of the the terrorist to slip away.

2. The commandos were not decisive enough. They returned fire from outside the building when there are still dozens of hostages inside. This went on for about an hour.

3. There wasn't enough emergency vehicles and crews at the scene. Many bystanders use their own cars to ferry some of the wounded to hopital nearby. If more medical personal were on the scene, at least a dozen hostage could have been saved.

Leave your opinion if you have anything to contribute.

And last, I would like to condem the terrorist for their brutality towards defenceless childrens and best wishes to the families in Russia who lost their love ones.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: Beslan School Raid, what went wrong?

1. Russian authorities failed to clear the scene of bystanders and secure it, which cause alot of confusion during the gun battle and allowed some of the the terrorist to slip away.

This is probably the only thing I would concede at this stage.

This is mainly because we have no plausable information about the incident and its evolution.

 

[Pathfinder-X]

Re: Beslan School Raid (Updated)

Since yesterday many new details have surfaced, I think we have enough information to put together the puzzles.

 

[highsea]

Re: Beslan School Raid (Updated)

Reports from survivors say that the terrorists were surprised by the first explosion. This may indicate the first explosion was an accident. They were in there for 62 hours, so they were probably pretty punchy.

I don't know just how much the Russians could have done to stop them once they were in place with the hostages and the building was wired. Maybe sleepy gas like they used in the theatre, but they came under a great deal of critism for that, and you don't know if the terrorists are using dead-man switches, so there is big a risk there.

I do agree that they should have had a much larger perimiter than they had to keep the civilians away, and had more ambulances in place. A field hospital should also be set up when you have so many hostages.

But the bottom line is, when the terrorists are prepared to die for their cause, people will die. My deepest sympathies go out to the Russian people for this horrible tragedy.

-CM

 

[The Watcher]

it was not planned, not even poorly! great loss of life shows that.

 

[Pathfinder-X]

Re: Beslan School Raid (Updated)

The Russians didn't seem to have learned their lesson in past incidents. During the Moscow theatre siege, some civilians have managed to approach the theatre's front entrance without anyone stopping them. In this incident however, it's a complete mess. No police lines, no barriers of any sort as far as I can see in the video. A great deal of life could have been saved if the special forces's rescue wasn't hampered by parents and relatives.

 

[Aussie Digger]

Re: Beslan School Raid (Updated)

Well the Russians made a number of mistakes, let us hope they don't make them again. For starters, no formal inner and outer cordon's existed, just a single "loose" cordon, that allowed parents/relatives to enter the School.

This is a fundamental mistake and is not even good practise for a simple IED incident, let alone a full blown siege. The inner cordon, depending on terrain of course should be 100m's, where high explosives are involved, the outer cordon (which the parents, relatives should be behind should be much further out.

Secondly from my observations, and the images broadcast, they did not appear to have a dedicated CT team. They apparently used "normal" special forces. The troops/police present were neither equipped, nor armed for a CT role, but only equipped for a "Green" role. There are excellent reasons for not using full powered Assault rifles (like AK-74's which were very much present in this incident) in the CT role.

In addition the assaulters did not "apparently" use any distractants (flash bangs, smoke, snipers etc)... I don't know if any of you have actually witnessed a flash bang go off, but the effects are basically a large ball of fire and smoke and an extremely loud noise. It's simply impossible to do anything but curl up into a ball when one of these things go off, no matter who you are...

Russia also needs in light of this tragic incident, to swallow it's pride somewhat and accept some advice and conduct joint training with some forces that HAVE successfully conducted these types of missions. Is it any wonder these incidents keep happening and keep going bad? Other forces have had to develop their CT capability through incidents like these or by training with forces who have. Why does Russia need to go through the same process the hard way?

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: Beslan School Raid (Updated)

Reuters input: By Tom Miles

Command Failure Seen at Fault in Beslan Massacre
MOSCOW (Reuters) - Security forces bungled the handling of Russia's worst hostage drama because nobody was in charge and special forces were not ready when the shooting started, security analysts said on Monday.

"It's clear that it was a total mess," leading military analyst Alexander Golts told Reuters. "They were not prepared."

As the death toll from the battle that ended the siege in the North Ossetian town of Beslan rose above 330, Russia's media asked how the vaunted special forces had allowed a two-day standoff to turn into a bloodbath.

Authorities said they were forced to storm the school when the militants fired on hostages who were fleeing in the confusion following two explosions. With no security cordon to keep them back, armed local people pressed forward and were among the first to return fire.

Local troops -- unprepared and possibly short of ammunition -- suddenly found themselves assaulting the school, while special forces moved in only half an hour after the battle began, Golts said.

The newspaper Vremya Novostei said that when the fighting started, two special forces squads from the FSB security service were still discussing assault plans and had not even agreed on approach routes or where the defenders' firing points were.

It said the two squads, Alfa and Vympel -- equivalent to Britain's Special Air Service or the U.S. Delta Force -- suffered unprecedented casualties totaling 10 dead and up to 31 wounded.

Security expert Andrei Soldatov said on Ekho Moskvy radio that the battle began so suddenly that many of the special forces fought without bullet-proof vests.

But local troops were also too close to the school, keen to show the media the scene and avoid the accusations of a cover-up that plagued the Russian government in a previous hostage crisis, the capture of a Moscow theater in 2002, he said.

The disastrous handling of the siege earned a rebuke for the security forces from President Vladimir Putin, himself a former agent in the KGB, the FSB's Soviet forerunner.

"We have to admit we showed no understanding of the danger of processes occurring in our own country and in the world at large," he said in a televised address on Saturday. "We failed to react appropriately to them and, instead, showed weakness."

SPECIAL FORCES NOT PREPARED

But Golts said he believed that remarks by Putin earlier in the siege might have added to the confusion.

"It's totally my theory, but as far as I understand, when Putin said the school would not be stormed, the special forces stood down and were not prepared for a crucial change in the situation."

Western analysts said a key weakness was the lack of coordination between police, army, paramilitary and special forces each controlled by different ministries or the FSB.

"In a typical area you will probably have interior forces and FSB forces and there will be little coordination between them," said Petter Stalenheim of the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute.

"Something must happen right at the top, to coordinate these structures better," said Alexander Rahr of the German Council on Foreign Relations. "There are too many of them...and they react in an uncoordinated way."

Rahr described the FSB as a closed, infexible "club" of officials with Soviet mindsets, struggling to adjust from Cold War espionage to fighting terrorism.

"The failings lie in the system, as Putin hinted, which has not been reformed -- or has been badly reformed and built up -- since the fall of the Soviet Union."

But any attempt by Putin to construct a "super-authority" would provoke accusations at home and abroad that he was recreating the KGB, Rahr added.

Among other problems, he pointed to the Russians' inability to infiltrate Chechen militant groups with informants, and the ability of militants to exploit official corruption.

"The problem, as ever in Russia, is in the unbelievable corruption. You can change the leadership of the FSB all you want, but these (insurgents) are fighting not only with weapons. When they infiltrate Russia they have cases or bags full of dollars and they 'buy' any policeman who stands in their way.

"As long as nothing is done on this level and those problems exist, Putin can reform all he wants at the top but it won't work at the lower level."

(Additional reporting by Mark Trevelyan, Security Correspondent)

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle....orldNews&storyID=6159568&pageNumber=1

 

[Aussie Digger]

Re: Beslan School Raid (Updated)

That it was a total and utter clusterf#*k is indisputable... But to say on the one hand that they had 2 troops of the calibre of 22nd SAS or Delta present and that they commenced a operation without even having an IA (Immediate Action plan) prepared is ridiculous.

To also state that they "ONLY" had 48 hours to prepare and therefore weren't ready is also ridiculous. I've seen REAL Dynamic Opposed Entries contemplated (ie: we might need to do one), organised (ie: the team does a recce, plans the raid, gears up) and conducted (actually does it) in as little as 3 hours, from getting the call that they're needed!!! 48 hours is sufficient to plan a deliberate Assault, let alone a hasty attack...

My feeling is that they made use of a local army unit that was ill equipped and (obviously) ill trained. Any CT team, that has ever trained in CT has a plan that they will use if something goes wrong, (ie: okay hostages are being killed, what do we do NOW?) Obviously the Politicians had a lot of control over the response to this incident, but surely they contemplated what they would do if the terrorists started killing people any way. What's to lose at that point?

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: Beslan School Raid (Updated)

They should have had the local police acting on the outer perimeter to hold back the crowds.

There are some pretty basic mistakes in here, and one wonders how they could have stuffed up on the fundamentals.

no comms
no medicals
no enforced perimeters
no plan
no sierra for overall control
some of them weren't even geared up properly

it's a mess.

ALFA and Vympel are supposed to be good at this.

 

[Pathfinder-X]

Re: Beslan School Raid (Updated)

According to an article on BBC.com, the Alfa were training in another school similar to the one where the hostage were held. The Russian negotiator at the scene stated that after the first explosion went off, armed parents started shooting at the gym, which caused the terrorist to think that an assault has begun. Only at that point did the order to storm the building was issued. Initially, troops who stormed school was regulars from Russian interior ministry. Elite Alfa and Vympel arrived at the scene almost 40 minutes into the gunfight. Both teams suffered heavy loss during the intense CQB battle, some operators died shielding the hostages with their bodies. Alfa sustained 7 dead while Vympel got 4, and about 26 were wounded.

The article from BBC

Ruslan Aushev told the Novaya Gazeta newspaper that the civilians had opened fire at the school after an explosion sent children streaming out.

The captors told negotiators by phone they were going to "let off the bombs".

Hurled into a chaotic situation, Russian commandos suffered heavy losses when they finally fought their way in.

Mr Aushev, former president of the neighbouring Russian region of Ingushetia, was at the hostage rescue HQ on Friday for the final moments of the siege.

A day earlier, he had helped negotiate the release of 26 people, including babies, when he personally went into the building.

The shooting by the irregulars - described by Mr Aushev as an "idiotic third force" - started a chain reaction, he said.

Armed men had inserted themselves among the security forces surrounding the school. Some are believed to have been fathers or relatives of hostages inside.

Link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3634114.stm

 

[The Watcher]

Great info pathfinder:

Here are some questions that others are asking:

Questions Mount as Russia Mourns Its Children

Many questions remain unanswered in the tragic story of the Beslan hostage crisis. What ends were the rebels pursuing? Why weren’t talks held?

We know that the rebels named those whose mediation they would be willing to accept, the presidents of North Ossetia and Ingushetia and pediatrician Leonid Roshal included. None of them met the rebels. Those people had been banned from doing so by Moscow, say MN correspondents reporting from Beslan. The crisis headquarters reportedly suspected the rebels of having issued a list of people they sought to kill.

more here;
http://www.mosnews.com/commentary/2004/09/06/questions.shtml

 

[The Watcher]

More neews on tactical failures at the command level as well as the government lies about the whole siege!

------------------------------

Kremlin admits lying
Details withheld during hostage crisis

By SUSAN B. GLASSER and PETER FINN
The Washington Post
MOSCOW - The Russian government admitted yesterday that it lied to its people about the scale of the hostage crisis that ended with more than 300 children, parents and teachers dead in southern Russia, making an extraordinary admission through state television after days of withering criticism from citizens.

http://www.capecodonline.com/cctimes/kremlinadmits6.htm

 

[gf0012-aust]

We know that the rebels named those whose mediation they would be willing to accept, the presidents of North Ossetia and Ingushetia and pediatrician Leonid Roshal included. None of them met the rebels. Those people had been banned from doing so by Moscow, say MN correspondents reporting from Beslan.

They did meet the paediatrician, he was the one conducting the talks and told them that "warriors don't hold children hostage or not give them food and water". If you didn't see the footage, he was the one in the doctors coat.

 

[highsea]

Re: Beslan School Raid (Updated)

Well Watcher, your's and pathfinder's political agenda's are quite clear to me. You can only fall back on the tired old "blame the victim" argument. i.e. Denial.

Is it a big surprise that the Russian Government would want to try to play down the potential tragedy? Should they immediately overstate the possible catastrophy in their own media?

Sure, they could have come out in the first hour and said there are 1500 hostages. Hell, they could have said 3,000 if they wanted to. Does this help, when you are trying to diffuse a situation, not escalate it? If this was a Russian conspiracy, they would have overstated the threat. That's just common sense.

Putin stated early on that they would not storm the school. He was committed to a civil resolution to the problem. In a way, this was bad, because the Spetznaz (sp?) stood down on the news. But the people who took the school were not civilized people. So this only served to empower them. These were innocent schoolchildren. They had no politics. Like all children, I'm sure they were worried about their grades, and which girls or boys they were going to flirt with that year. They were used as pawns by the animals that collected them in the gym and wired it to blow up.

When the first explosions went off, (apparently a result of disagreements between the terrorists), the lack of an effective cordon hampered a professional response. 20 Russian Special Forces were killed in the confusion. They were unprepared, because they were on a stand down, due to Putin's public announcement that there would be no assault. When it all went to hell, the armed civilians that rushed the school shot at least 10 of the Russian troops in the back, out of confusion and their desire to save their children. The police didn't even have time to don their vests. Certainly this was a failure on the part of the police for not effectively containing the civilians. And they paid a dear price.

There is only one place to place responsibility for this massacre. We both know where that responsibility lies.

The fact that it was schoolchildren that were the specific targets of this hideous act only emphasizes the inhumanity of the attackers. There is no other civilized interpretation.

Was it a poorly executed response? Perhaps It's easy to monday morning quarterback. Was it a conspiracy by the Russian Government to gain sympathy in the Chechen War? That makes me sick. It's a sad reflection on our collective society when we deny reality for the sake of ideology.

You know, a good friend and me were chatting the other day. His take was this; Beyond the simple truth that terrorists can be given no quarter, how to you dissuade them? His idea was this; you round up their families, cousins, neices, nephews, and execute all. Terminate the family line. By taking this brutal course, you teach the terrorists that there is a price to pay. It's not just other families that pay.

More and more I wonder if these discussions are useful. But that is a decision for the admins.

-CM

 

[Pathfinder-X]

Re: Beslan School Raid (Updated)

Well Watcher, your's and pathfinder's political agenda's are quite clear to me. You can only fall back on the tired the "blame the victim" argument.

Is it a big surprise that the Russian Government would want to try to play down the potential tragedy? Should they immediately overstate the possible catastrophy in their own media?

Sure, they could have come out in the first hour and said there are 1500 hostages. Hell, they could have said 3,000 if they wanted to. Does this help?

Putin stated early on that they would not storm the school. He was committed to a civil resolution to the problem. In a way, this was bad, because the Spetznaz (sp?) stood down on the news. But the people who took the school were not civilized. This only empowered them.

When the first explosions went off, (apparently a result of disagreements between the terrorists), the lack of an effective cordon hampered a professional response. 20 Russian Special Forces were killed in the confusion. They were unprepared, because they were on a stand down, due to Putin's public announcement that there would be no assault. When it all went to hell, the armed civilians that rushed the school shot at least 10 of the Russian troops in the back, out of confusion and their desire to save their children. Certainly this was a failure on the part of the police for not effectively containing the civilians. They paid a dear price.

There is only one place to place responsibility for this massacre. We both know where that responsibility lies.

The fact that it was schoolchildren that were the specific targets of this hideous act only emphasizes the inhumanity of the attackers. There is no other civilized interpretation.

-CM

First of all, I do not appreciate the comment about me having a political agenda. I started the thread to discuss the tactical and command errors made by Russian forces during the siege, not who should be blamed for the death of hostages. I never did blame anyone if you would open your eyes and read my post, only quoted the situation described by people at the scene. If you want to argue about whose responsibility it is, open a new thread and I'll gladly comment in it. Otherwise, don't contaminate my thread with all the "political" issue.

Second, Alfa and Vympel did not stood down. They were training at a similar school for a delibrate assault as reported by BBC and CTV. The early of gunfight were carried out by Russian police and interior ministry regulars(Which were indeed taken by suprise), SF arrived almost 40 minutes later from where they were training. At that point, the two SF units still haven't decided the assault routes or even who will undertake it. The performance of Alfa and Vympel was acceptable, considering the confusion caused by lack of police parameter. The actions of parents who rushed forward did not help with the rescue effort but only hampered it.

 

[The Watcher]

highsea sees this through "terrorism, terrorist" eyes, not knowing that this thread is discussing the tactics used in and during the siege of the school. the tactical errors made by both russians and the hostage takers. This isn't about who has a political agenda, even if there is a political agenda, do you have an answer to it? Valid argument against it? If so present it instead of just negating it and then ignoring with a "its a political agenda" thus i can't discuss.

Look at the arguement presented, everything isn't RIGHT and LEFT! Both sides of the story matter and we must look at what went wrong and how things developed into a bloodbath! Obviously, NO BODY wanted a bloodbath.

 

[highsea]

Re: Beslan School Raid (Updated)

First of all, I do not appreciate your little comment about me having a political agenda. I started the thread to discuss the tactical and command errors made by Russian forces during the siege, not who should be blamed for the death of hostages. I never did blame anyone if you would open your eyes and read my post, only quoted the situation described by people at the scene. If you want to argue about whose responsibility it is, open a new thread and I'll gladly comment in it.

Pathfinder, I stand corrected. I thought I saw an agreement from you on Watcher's post about how this was a staged attack perpetuated by the Russians for political gain. After re-reading, I see that is not there.

Those kind of accusations tweak me. I apologize.

My comments are directed at Watcher's innuendo, specifically this comment "More neews on tactical failures at the command level as well as the government lies about the whole siege! ", and the associated post.

Please accept my apology for including you as a party in his accusations. As to my opinion of the attackers, I stand by it.

Sorry to the board (as a whole) for the emotional response. Kids are sacred, until they become old enough to become political.

Peace.
-CM

 

[The Watcher]

highsea no body is offering any support or defending the attackers. Please dont get any of us wrong. If you read through this thread, you will see the failures that came from Russian side and clearly there were.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: Beslan School Raid (Updated)

my last post for a few weeks! I'm off to Germany for work.

The main thing is to make sure we stay within the focus of this particular topic. If we are discussing tactics on the way that Beslan was handled, then we will avoid the unfortunate opportunity for misunderstandings and some of the politics.

Either way, the common baseline is that the Russians stuffed up the start of the site securing by not have multiple cordons - to do so would have started to reduce if not eliminate the storming of the school by some parents.

The main thing after that is how briefed up were Alfa and Vympel about numbers inside, as without that, noone could come up with a meaningful IA

-- see you all in 2 weeks.