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South China Sea thoughts?

This is a discussion on South China Sea thoughts? within the Geo-strategic Issues forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by Todjaeger A significant amount of funding comes into the Philippines as remittances from the roughly 10 mil. ...


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Old May 13th, 2013   #46
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A significant amount of funding comes into the Philippines as remittances from the roughly 10 mil. overseas Filippino workers (OFW). ~75,000 are in Taiwan, with about two-thirds of those working in the manufacturing sector, with the other third covering home/personal care.

Even if the OFW's are not making 'big bucks' if the income when adjusting for cost of living, travel, EFT's, etc it seems to be economically advantageous to work overseas for periods of time, vs. trying to work domestically.

-Cheers
Just wonder if you have any proof that 10 million Filipino workers are working overseas? Really, 50,000 are working in the manufacturing sector in Taiwan? I would think that 25,000 may work in manufacturing capacity or another, and the 50,000 are mainly household help and some that are lucky enough work in hospitals as nurse's aides although they have professional degrees?

[Mod edit: Official warning issued. You have been unprofessional in your responses to other members and the Mod Team, while pretending to be a victim. This pattern of laying blame will stop or admin sanctions will be applied.

The issue at hand is your noted lack of professionalism in a number of discussions across different threads. Lack of knowledge should not prevent you from learning. You have a track record of being resistant to learning in this forum, despite the demonstrated patience of other members in explaining the basics to you. I am frankly stunned by your demonstrated lack of reasoning ability for an adult; and and lack of emotional maturity in almost every thread. Try to read the threads you post in, rather than jumping in without reading.

Read more, or you are not suited to be a member here.]

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Old May 13th, 2013   #47
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Just wonder if you have any proof that 10 million Filipino workers are working overseas? Really, 50,000 are working in the manufacturing sector in Taiwan? I would think that 25,000 may work in manufacturing capacity or another, and the 50,000 are mainly household help and some that are lucky enough work in hospitals as nurse's aides although they have professional degrees?
And I - in turn - would like to see if you have any proof to support the sort of numbers you are talking about; 25,000 working in manufacturing and 50,000 "mainly household help".
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Old May 13th, 2013   #48
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You disagreed with his figures and trumped up some yourself, I was enquiring what sort of evidence you have to lead you to that sort of conclusion, that is all.

As to why I didn't ask Tod, despite your attempt to make it look as though I've played favourites, the simple answer is this; this isn't a topic I have much interest in. So when I did read it however for the first time a few minues ago, you have already asked Tod for the proof and I thought it would be pointless to ask the same again (Would you not agree?). Also, I generally find that when there's a dispute and one party wants evidence from the other, that the asker should also provide the evidence as to why he is disputing it.

There you have it, no favouritism, just lack of interest. Just so you know, I was a newbie once too (and still am in many regards), no links to anything defence related at all and I still don't, but I still had evidence to hand to substantiate what I was saying. It's a habit I've picked up at university; referencing
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Old May 13th, 2013   #49
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I am assuming that we are all professionals in this forum, so therefore, give each a chance to voice their opinions.
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IMO there is no need for you folks on interjecting and giving your so called "2 cents" right away...and basically refereeing something that doesn't need it to be refereed right away. Very respectfully.
Bit contradictory, don't you think. Everyone gets a chance to voice their opinions except us mods who need to keep our noses out? So because i'm a moderator I suddenly lose the right to get involved too?

In any case, I wasn't giving my "2 cents", I was asking you for evidence which gave you the confidence to just disregard Tod's numbers and create some yourself, which I have yet so see. (Just to emphasise, I want to know why you disagreed with what he was saying. I'm not saying he's right, what i'm saying is what evidence do YOU have to make you think you are right)

I'm a member of this forum, just as much as everyone else, and as such have just as much right to interject in the chatter if I find something to comment on as anyone else. Which means when I see someone telling someone else that they are wrong, I want to see the evidence presented. I joined this forum to discuss, and now apparently because my name is in red I'm not allowed to do so "in your opinion"?

Anyway, i'm done with this thread, seems like getting someone to back up their talk is more of a challenge than it's worth

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Old May 13th, 2013   #50
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If anyone wants to challenge the Mods direction they can do it via PM's or either Web or the Mod Team

public chat will be deleted forthwith

This is a private forum with established rules of behaviour. read them, accept them or leave
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Old May 13th, 2013   #51
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A few things. For those questioning numbers provided, a few minutes of googling can often yield results. Most of the time when people are requested to provide sources, it is because the available information does not match up with the figures claimed.

Having said that, there is something which needed clarification and correction. It turns out where I first looked for information did not differentiate between between Filipinos working overseas, or Filipinos born in the Philippines but settling overseas. The actual numbers I am now getting of both Overseas Filipino Workers (OFW) and Filipinos who have settled overseas is ~10.5 mil. A source for that can be found here.

Now per official Philippines gov't figures, there are ~2.2 mil. OFW's, that figure is available from the Census office here. Keep in mind though an OFW is a rather specific designation by the gov't, which means that there likely more Filipinos working overseas, some might not be recognized as such by their gov't.

Making a calculation based off the official gov't figures for OFW's in Taiwan, it appears that there are ~82,000. In terms of check what they were doing, getting documented sources becomes more difficult, since the gov't appears only to be reporting 'new hires' but for the year 2010 as found here on page #46, for the positions which fell within the title PRODUCTION AND RELATED WORKERS ( N E C ), there were 20,211 New Hires in 2010.

Now one thing which must be kept in mind when talking about OFW's is that it really does not matter what position they have when they are working overseas. What matters is whether they can earn enough while working overseas to be able to save/remit more money than they could have net earned had they stayed in the Philippines. Looking at the numbers here, it appears that in 2011, OFW's remitted ~US$146 mil. or averaging out to about US$1,788 sent or brought back to the Philippines from each OFW in Taiwan. Given that the the per capita GDP of the Philippines (PPP) in 2011 was ~$4,100 In fact, overseas remittances accounts for ~10% of the Philippines' GDP according to a number of sources.

For a nearby country like Taiwan to consider making more difficult for OFW's to either come to work, or send/bring money back, that is something which the Philippine gov't needs to be mindful of. Especially with concerns about the world economy shrinking, making it more difficult/less profitable for OFW's and thus flow-on impacts to the Philippine GDP and standard of living.

-Cheers
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Old May 14th, 2013   #52
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There is always two sides to an story. Based on what I have read, it is from the Taiwan side. What about from the Philippines side? Why is mainland China getting involved in this incident? Is it because it is Chinese against Filipino? Is mainland China trying to stir something so Taiwan will act more forcefully against the Philippines about this incident? How about Chinese fishermen poachings of endangered species inside Philippine seas/waters far from the disputed Spratlys? What are their reactions to those incidents?
The Mod Team notes that the first link db2646 references is from the NY Times, though Taiwan sources have more details on the shooting-at-sea, incident by a Philippine law enforcement agency. Further, db2646 has converted a shooting-at-sea incident between Taiwan and Philippines into a racial incident, via a series of questions. We note that countries are not individuals or people.

db2646 starts with a misrepresentation of sources provided but does not provide his own sources, while demanding answers and trying to convert thread into a 'he said', 'she said' competition of shouting sources. This is not how the forum is moderated. We are much more interested in learning about what happened and understanding the context which certain actions took place. Thereafter, the 2nd and 3rd order effects of choices made by the actors.

This is type of passive aggressive trolling will not be allowed to continue. db2646 has been unprofessional in his responses to other members and the Mod Team, while pretending to be a victim. This pattern of laying blame will stop or admin sanctions will be applied.
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Old May 14th, 2013   #53
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db2646,

My advice would be to get on your horse and ride into the sunset now, and don't come back until you've actually had a think (and I mean REALLY HAD A THINK) about why the moderators on this site behave as they do, and why the rules are set up the way they are, etc. It's quite apparent from your childish behaviour on this thread and others that abiding by your your recent behaviour you will not be a fit for this forum nor will you have an easy time escaping the reputation you have already managed to carve out for yourself, despite the short time you've been on the boards.

It seems time spent on you is time wasted. Maybe you feel the same way about us. In any case I'd suggest some time away so you can figure out whether or not you want to have a go at actually contributing to some discussions rather than attacking forum members, defence professionals, and moderators alike. The former might get things back on track, the latter will lead to a forced absence regardless.

I'm sick of logging on here and finding yet another thread where you've gotten someone's nose out of joint with your garbage. Change your attitude or get out.
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Old May 14th, 2013   #54
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I would extend it by saying that I would not be surprised to see both the PLAN and the Taiwanese Navy extend Anti Piracy protection to each others Fishermen or indeed to initiate Anti Piracy patrols in the general region.
I think this approach will complicate matters in a manner that is detrimental to President Ma and KMT's interests in Taiwan. And I know the CCP prefers to deal with the KMT for Taiwan Straits matters. A hawkish pushing for confrontation is not in China's interest, as this will over play the cards in China's hands (otherwise you could have a counter-productive PRC vs Taiwan naval confrontation in the days ahead or some other unintended 2nd and 3rd order effect on Cross Straits Relations).

The Taiwan Government (with a defence budget of US$10.72 billion in 2012) under President Ma does not have a free hand to what they want but they have more than enough resources to bring the appropriate pressure to bear on the Philippine Government (with a defence budget of US$2.97 billion in 2012), should they be tempted to back-track on their commitment to conduct a full and transparent investigation. As predicted, Taiwan is the the process of executing its crisis communication management plan (for external and internal parties) and the news update below reinforces what I said in the previous post. Unless other wild cards are thrown in the ring, I expect Taiwanese mastery of its escalation options in a manner that demonstrates professionalism. As I said in my prior post, the urgent need to prevent further unnecessary deaths of fishermen in the South China Sea should provide scope for increased and robust unilateral Taiwanese patrols in areas of dispute in the EEZ boundaries between Taiwan and Philippines.

In contrast, past Philippine Administrations decided that they will never need to go to war with another state (as an instrument of state policy). Historically, Philippines is a house divided with presence of internal insurgents. The key task of the Philippine military is address the threat faced by internal insurgents. Therefore the Philippines has a poorly resourced and technologically dated navy that is armed like a coast guard. They also have disbanded their air combat arm of their air force by budget choice in 2005. The net result of these cumulative decisions is the contraction of the country's geo-strategic depth in an era of a changing balance of power in Asia. This means that the present Philippine Administration under Noynoy Aquino has a poor hand of cards to play, in the game of escalation options.

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Originally Posted by Taipei Times
14 May 2013 -- The Ministry of National Defense and the Coast Guard Administration (CGA) will hold a joint military exercise in the overlapping waters of Taiwan and the Philippines this week... The combined exercise would be held in waters about 164 nautical miles (304km) southeast of the southernmost tip of Taiwan, where the 15-tonne Taiwanese fishing boat Kuang Ta Hsing No. 28 was attacked by a Philippine Coast Guard vessel, leading to the death of Taiwanese fisherman Hung Shih-cheng...

<snip>

Taiwan’s naval forces are more than a match for the Philippines’, a defense official said, adding that coast guard patrols are authorized to use force when attacked.

<snip>
See the latest news update below on the US position, which is neutral. The facts are not out, as the investigation is ongoing. As the US spokesperson said below, we just need to wait. Taiwan will play its first card to bring pressure to bear on the Philippines at midnight, today. Hopefully this will provide a sense of urgency for the Philippine authorities to resolve the matter in a professional and transparent manner.

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Originally Posted by AFP
14 May 2013 - The United States Monday voiced regret over the death of a Taiwanese fisherman killed when the Philippine coast guard fired on his vessel... "We regret the tragic death of a Taiwan fishing boat master during a May 9 confrontation at sea with a Philippine patrol vessel," State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki told reporters.

"The United States has been in touch with both the Philippine government and the Taiwan authorities regarding this incident. And we welcome the Philippine government's pledge to conduct a full and transparent investigation."

<snip>
This is one of the moments where the external parties to incident will have to wait and see what develops next. As I said before, the good news about this storm in a tea cup is the level of sanctions imposed by Taiwan. If this is done for a short duration, it amounts to a slap on the wrist in the bigger scheme of things.
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Old May 14th, 2013   #55
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South China Sea thoughts?

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A few things. For those questioning numbers provided, a few minutes of googling can often yield results.
Damn right! See below for what I found in 30 seconds on Filipino workers in Taiwan.
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Originally Posted by db2646 View Post
Just wonder if you have any proof that 10 million Filipino workers are working overseas? Really, 50,000 are working in the manufacturing sector in Taiwan? I would think that 25,000 may work in manufacturing capacity or another, and the 50,000 are mainly household help and some that are lucky enough work in hospitals as nurse's aides although they have professional degrees?
I think most Filipinos would share my feelings about your post, i.e. that you are parroting a demeaning national stereotype. I suggest you examine your attitudes.

Todjaeger's numbers are correct in principle. but are a little out of date. The most recent official figures for Filipino workers in Taiwan, from Taiwan's Council of Labor [sic] Affairs, as of end March 2013, are -
Total: 87516
In services (this includes all the domestic workers, hospital workers, etc): 23015
In manufacturing: 63151

Of which the main employers are -
Electronic parts & components: 26593 (i.e. more than in all services)
Electronic & optical products: 6630
Fabricated metal products: 6508
Machinery & equipment: 4388

Source

PS. Because of my wife's job I've encountered Filipinos working in health care here, e.g. nurses (normally qualified, not advanced degrees) - working as nurses. Care homes for those with mental handicaps employing Filipinos (without degrees of any kind, just nursing training & experience in the job) - as shift leaders & care managers. Etc. Go away & have a good look at your own attitudes, & ask yourself why you have the image of Filipinos that you do.
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Old May 14th, 2013   #56
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Damn right! See below for what I found in 30 seconds on Filipino workers in Taiwan.

I think most Filipinos would share my feelings about your post, i.e. that you are parroting a demeaning national stereotype. I suggest you examine your attitudes.

Todjaeger's numbers are correct in principle. but are a little out of date. The most recent official figures for Filipino workers in Taiwan, from Taiwan's Council of Labor [sic] Affairs, as of end March 2013, are -
Total: 87516
In services (this includes all the domestic workers, hospital workers, etc): 23015
In manufacturing: 63151

Of which the main employers are -
Electronic parts & components: 26593 (i.e. more than in all services)
Electronic & optical products: 6630
Fabricated metal products: 6508
Machinery & equipment: 4388

Source

PS. Because of my wife's job I've encountered Filipinos working in health care here, e.g. nurses (normally qualified, not advanced degrees) - working as nurses. Care homes for those with mental handicaps employing Filipinos (without degrees of any kind, just nursing training & experience in the job) - as shift leaders & care managers. Etc. Go away & have a good look at your own attitudes, & ask yourself why you have the image of Filipinos that you do.
Agree completely. To add to that Pilipino seafarers provide a sizeable chunk of crews to many seafaring nations, including those embroiled in the the current situation.


Irrespective of what you may think of them most are hard working and very professional. .......... and extremely capable. Sorry DB, we have crossed paths before and I again find that you tend to make comments that are unsupportable or based on a premise which is fundamentally flawed. As I have noted before, we all make mistakes, however suggest it is time for you to retract.

While the rights and wrongs of the currently situation need to be sorted out, and indeed there may be some fault on the Philippines Navy (something for those who have the facts to sort out) to imply that this may be connected to a character trait (which is how I read your posts) is reprehensible.
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Old May 14th, 2013   #57
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Nevertheless, Tod's rough numbers of 2/3 in the manufacturing and roughly 1/3 in home care are more accurate than your belief that the proportions should be the opposite way round, thanks to the efforts of swerve. With a source of the numbers, I might add.

63,151 in manufacturing, and 23,015 in the services sector (including domestic + hospital workers).
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Old May 14th, 2013   #58
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You probably know why I am so passionate about the Pilipino (correct spelling for citizens of the Philippines) people being employed overseas because I responded to Alexa's accussation in his post. If you take a look at those Pilipinos employed as factory/manufacturing workers, most of those workers have degrees in engineering or technical education, etc. I know this because of my Pilipino heritage. One of the requirements of foreign countries for Pilipinos to work there in their country is for them to have an education, so these people are basically under-employed. These Pilipino people are also multi-lingual...very educated people working in factories, etc.
Accusations, actually it was more of a restating of how many interpret the manner in which you responded. As I indicated the manner in which you present does you no favours.


As an example (and I accept I am being picky)............ It is a bit rich to correct others for writing "Filipino" in Lieu of "Pilipino" when you used the former in your previous post attesting to your heritage.
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Old May 14th, 2013   #59
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Nevertheless, Tod's rough numbers of 2/3 in the manufacturing and roughly 1/3 in home care are more accurate than your belief of the proportions, thanks to the efforts of swerve. With a source of the numbers, I might add.

63,151 in manufacturing, and 23,015 in the services sector (including domestic + hospital workers).
Rob, I believe you. Also, kindly check the education of those Pilipino workers in manufacturing. I'll guess that most of them have technical college degrees and probably most in engineering. And those in the services sector, I'll bet those workers are probably college educated too.
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Old May 14th, 2013   #60
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Why would I need to check the education? If their academic record is something you wish to push then by all means provide the information about it (I would also like to know how you would expect me to find out the sort of academic standards those employees have, ring the companies up and ask for copies?), but it's not what matters to me and thus I won't bother.

My involvement is - and always has been - getting a clear idea of the numbers involved, accurate numbers plus evidence have been supplied by swerve and that's all the information I was looking to get.
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