SAF 3G weapons capabilities

SGMilitary

New Member
Dear All,

Let's put our thinking caps and facts obtain from various sources to review the SAF 3g weapons capabilities.

1. What are our current weapons inventory of the 3 services.

2. What are the steps SAF can implement to further enhanced her capabilities.

3. What are the future plans of the SAF to replace past generation weapons such as the following:

I.HAWK
F-5
C130H
35MM AA Guns
Super Puma AS 532M
KC130B
Fokker 50 MPA
Victory class corvettes
Centurion MBTs
RBS70
40MM Bofors guns on MCMV

Looking forward to an objective and participative forum.Thank you.
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Dear All,

Let's put our thinking caps and facts obtain from various sources to review the SAF 3g weapons capabilities.

1. What are our current weapons inventory of the 3 services.

2. What are the steps SAF can implement to further enhanced her capabilities.

3. What are the future plans of the SAF to replace past generation weapons such as the following:

I.HAWK
F-5
C130H
35MM AA Guns
Super Puma AS 532M
KC130B
Fokker 50 MPA
Victory class corvettes
Centurion MBTs
RBS70
40MM Bofors guns on MCMV

Looking forward to an objective and participative forum.Thank you.
F-5 is easy. More F-15SG's...

KC-130B? Easy - KC-130J.

Fokker 50 MPA? - P-8A.

Centurion MBT's? Leopard IIA6's...

40mm Bofors on MCMV? 25mm Rafael Typhoon guns. (Utilising 25mm M242 Bushmaster Cannon).

Super Pumas? NH-90's.

I-HAWK - Patriot PAC-3.

C-130H - C-130J-30's.

35mm guns? If they are Oerkilon's simply upgrade them to current standards and mate them to Leo II hulls, "Gepard" style. Easy and immediate C-RAM capability...

Victory Class corvettes? How about a few more of those nice Formidable Class frigates?

RBS-70? Why replace it? Simply upgrade it with the nice clip-on night aiming devices, a networked fire control and surveillance radar system and the new Bolide missile and you've got an entirely new point defence capability, plus an improved anti-armour capability...
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Improving the SAF

The SAF would need to be a better learning organisation that has a formal process of implementing changes at both a tactical level and at a strategic level.

For example, recently a SAF Bn was sent for training in Alaska (with the US Striker brigade) and I gather that the boys found the training to be different and useful. What is being done to transfer what these boys have learnt to other SAF units (not just from commanders reports to higher HQ at OC and CO level) but at the specialist level. What scope is there for the feedback gathered to be implemented at a SAF level, such that these ideas, where appropriate, can be adapted and adopted. This will ensure that the best in class tactics can fit the SAF's strategic objective. Once we have a process to learn about learning, SAF's next equipment to acquire will become clear.

In the late 1980s, when the SAF undertook the Army 2000 project (to shape the current army section, platoon and company orbat (force levels) for the SAF), the trail Bn had a dedicated trail management team that comprised of 3 officers (a major and 2 captains) to compile the test results to higher HQ. SAF needs to have a dedicated learning and change management team to be deployed with these units.

At a business conference in Singapore, the US military gave a presentation on how they use 6 sigma to improve processes.
 
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OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Dear All,

I agree with the posts above, except for 2 points from weasel1962, as follows:

(i) I don't think that converting surplus airbuses/boeings in Silkair/Singapore airlines inventory to tankers is an option. SIA has its own bottom-line concerns. It sells its second hand jets and SIA is increasingly looking at lease options.

(ii) I also don't think that we are moving towards replacement of helos to all chinook fleet. Medium lift helos (like the Super Pumas) will continue to have an important tactical role. That is why the Super Pumas (and Cougars) are being armed with guns by ST. The missing piece in our helo orbat seems to be combat search and rescue helos teams that can go in under fire to rescue aircrew.

Back to my point on SAF becoming a learning organisation (and I don't mean the lol WITS program) and the importance of providing a more realistic training to the US, see this report on the importance of training (i.e. red flag, top gun and so on) to providing an edge to US forces.

www.csbaonline.org/4Publications/Pu...at_Training/R.20080821.US_Combat_Training.pdf

SAF's systems approach to the buying of weapons ensures that the navy gets air support and vice versa. However in this matrix, the human factor design seems to be lost.
 
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A

Aussie Digger

Guest
A number of options here. That includes converting some of surplus airbuses/boeings in Silkair/Singapore airlines inventory to tankers.
Agreed. But a KC-130J acquisition would probably be the "easiest" one for one replacement of capability which was my intent.


Unlikely to be a single replacement aircraft. The F-15SGs are apparently tasked towards harpoon attacks. For MP, the role is heading towards UAVs. ASW = S70s. Cost of P-8A too high.
Manned response options are still important for MPA and S-70 has an EXTREMELY limited radius of operations. It would be dangerous in the extreme leaving the TOTAL ASW response role to a helo in my opinion.

P-8 is obviously the "highest end" option out there. I think Singapore can afford it, but whether it's necessary or not remains to be seen.

Other options exist, re-lifing P-3C Orions and C-235/295 MPA options are possible alternatives.

More likely more L2A4s.
Aha. I thought Singapore bought "refurbished" A4 hulls but subsequently ordered A6 upgrade kits?

More likely chinook fleet only. Supports more air-lifting of Pegasus. But if medium fleet was considered, NH-90 is a good candidate.
There are plenty of medium lift options, UH-60M being a likely prospective, given the commonality with Singapore's existing S-70's. If a medium helo is sought to replace the Cougar/Super Puma's, I imagine NH-90, AW-139, Blackhawk and perhaps evolved Cougar and EH-101 and S-92 variants will all be in the running...

If replacement was now, that's a logical choice. However, no plans soon to replace. At estimated time of replacement, A400M is possibly one of the mentioned candidates ie they're monitoring.
C-17b will be available in that timeframe too... Such a long ranged airlifter would be very handy for Singapore given the wide spread of training bases...

Agree except that missiles have a shelf life. Capability also moving towards multiple shots/tracks, greater range. ER munitions entering neighbor's inventories are rendering such weapons obsolete.
Agreed, but most missiles have 20 years or so before LOT. Bolide is a new missile that offers a significant capability enhancement over previous RBS-70 variants.

The options you discuss are upgrade paths. As to it's obsolescence, more than a few Countries around the world disagree with that opinion. Australia included...
 

SGMilitary

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #6
Dear All,

The G550 cost more than US$120-US$140 million each. Refer to AIR FORCE monthly magazine, anyone have any link?

As of now, the RSAF had procured additional G550 platform from ST Aereospace as a training platform under the PPP venture similar to the RSAF EC120 Colibri program.

There's another forum that mentioned that the RSAF is evaluating several platforms as KC135R replacement,The no of aircraft required between 6-8 and that the RSAF had already procured 2 C17 Airlifter with an option for two more during Singapore Airshow.Currently, the RSAF is upgarding 6 C130H hercules similar to USAF upgrade programme and the four C-17 is an excellent replacement for the KC-130B.

The RSAF/RSN is looking at Global HAWK as a possible replacement for the Fokker 50 MPA or a combination of manned and unmanned platform as MPA,total aircraft required believed to be 6.

On the missile defence capability, there is an article from www.defensenews.com that RSAF is procuring SPYDER SR as Rapier 2000 replacement;though denied by the latter and other contenders include SL-AMRAAM;VL MICA.Singapore is negotiating with France for Aster 30 SAMP/T as I.HAWK replacement and has shown keen interest on CROTALE 3 system to add to her inventory.

We are fully aware that the RSN is operating both the Aster15/30 on her Formidable warships.

The RSN has requirement for two LHD and upgrading of her 4 Landsort MCMV, possible upgrade kit from Sweden and there are strong speculation that the 6 Victory MCV will be replaced by DCN design Horizon Frigates build for RSN specification similar to Formidable class but with enhanced capability.


Best Regards.
 
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OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
3G SAF and the Chief Defence Scientist

1. Ani-Ballistic Missile Defence Capability
===============================

1.1 In Feb 2008, Professor Lui Pao Chuen, Singapore's Chief Defence Scientist showed as an example the integration of the Formidable Class frigate (FFS) with the air defence ops centre (see: www.c4i-asia.com.sg/pdf/07 CDS Closing Address.pdf) This means that the air defence ops centre (through the AWACS) and the FFS are tightly integrated for air defence.

1.2 Given that the FFS carries the Aster 15/30, does this mean Singapore has a Ani-Ballistic Missile Defence Capability?

2. Impact of US Navy's BAMS program
=============================
2.1 DSO scientists my be very interested in the work being done by Northrop Grumman on the HALE (High Altitude, Long Endurance) platform, which is based on the Global Hawk (See. http://www.navy.mil/navydata/policy/vision/vis05/vpp05-ch3_sea_shield.pdf). However the cost is very prohibitive.

2.2 DSO scientists are interested in LALEE (Altitude Long Enduring Endurance) and we may see future development of this area of research into a maritime strike and surveillance UAV to replace the Fokker 50 aircraft. DSO is interested in this technology (see: www.dsta.gov.sg/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1803&Itemid=401)
 
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OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
FFS and Deep Strike

1. Naval Task Force Deep Strike
=========================
1.1 Given that the Formidable class frigates (FFS) are capable of area defence, the Singapore navy would have gained a new deep strike naval capability, as long as they are in the range of our Fokker 50 aircraft (for surface warfare) and when the Seahawks arrive, the Naval Task Force will have reasonable ASW (when the subs are included)

1.2 The FFS with the Endurance Class LPDs will enable the Singapore navy to operate far from home and retain a deadly punch. This would enable the navy to deal with the problem of piracy on Singapore ships, as the 2 classes of ships can carry helos (including the Apaches) to deliver a strike package of NDU operators by helo or by sea.

2. Expeditionary and OOTW Capability
=============================

2.1 With the navy deep strike, army has acquired a deep strike capability. The Endurance Class LPDs can carry troops and deploy them from sea, near the beachhead, given that the Terrax AV-81 can swim at 10 km/h (kind of like the US Marines)

2.2 With elements of the 4 SIR training in Alaska with the striker brigade, the Terrax AV-81must be the new infantry troop carrier, as they are at least mine resistant with their V shaped hull.

2.3 In this context the armour plating on the 5 tonne trucks would make more sense as these would then be part of the combat resupply train, whcih is important in OOTW.

3. OOTW in a urban Areas
=====================
3.1 See www.mindef.gov.sg/imindef/publications/cyberpioneer/features/2005/apr05_cs.html for the special equipment used by 3 SIR, including the surveillance ball (featured in future weapons) and the round corner firing system

3.2 See (www.dso.org.sg/home/newsevents/newsevents_showpage.aspx?id=44) DSO technology in urban ops, including a new sniper detection system with 11 acoustic sensors and the "Through-wall Surveillance Technology"

4. UCAV Strike
============
4.1 With the acquisition of the Hermes 450 by the SAF, we now have a strike capability with our UAVs for the first time.

4.2 Given the cost effectiveness of the system, IMHO, the SAF will be looking for more capable solutions in future. Professor Lui Pao Chuen, has stated that the F5E cost $4m, the F16A/B $20m, F16C/D $40m and F15SG $80m, thereby making UCAV attractive as a substitute.

4.3 This means that in time the Reaper class UCAVs will become more attractive as a substitute to CAS.
 
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LazerLordz

New Member
Verified Defense Pro
there are strong speculation that the 6 Victory MCV will be replaced by DCN design Horizon Frigates build for RSN specification similar to Formidable class but with enhanced capability.

Best Regards.
Could you clarify this? It's the first time I've heard of Horizon Frigates (basically FREMMs with steroids) replacing our MCVs. I doubt we have the manpower to stand up these larger ships, which are basically at destroyer tonnage.
 

Chino

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
If we did, why would we be pushing for greater automation and unmanned systems?
You can't answer a simple question, and always ask a question in return. Maybe you feel this makes you look smart withoutt committing yourself to committing yourself to saying anything substantial. If you can't prove what you just said, why not just admit it? Or better, shut up.
 

LazerLordz

New Member
Verified Defense Pro
You can't answer a simple question, and always ask a question in return. Maybe you feel this makes you look smart withoutt committing yourself to committing yourself to saying anything substantial. If you can't prove what you just said, why not just admit it? Or better, shut up.
You can keep your flames to yourself. While we all have our own opinions on certain issues, we all reserve the right to answer in our own way that doesn't require denigration or ad hominem attacks.

Take it or leave it. This is not a board for flaming. It is a board for discussion, be it either direct or rhetoric.

Secondly, I do not see the need to rehash certain facts about the Singaporean military which can be sourced or inferred from the goals and programs of our MINDEF.

Have a good day.
 

Red

New Member
============
4.1 With the acquisition of the Hermes 450 by the SAF, we now have a strike capability with our UAVs for the first time.
Im sure you do not mean to say that. Must have been a typo. They are really for surveillance mate. Hermes 450s cannot be armed at all. You should know better.
 

Red

New Member
If we did, why would we be pushing for greater automation and unmanned systems?
Yes Captain. I agree. RSN`s future ships will be undermanned in the sense that there will be more automation but they will be bigger in size. I do not see an issue with this at all. Especially since in wartime, crew complement will be increased with naval conscript reserves.

Formidables can operate with a 60 man crew. That is a lesser crew complement than the Victory class corvette. The 12000-13000 ton DDX need about 97-100 crew to function.
 

Red

New Member
See no reason why another 6 Formidables can't be added. Its probably cheaper to build it out of ST marine's shipyards. But I'd hold it off a little longer. New technologies are coming online eg ship radars, SAM missiles, sonars, torpedoes, helos etc and can be incorporated into later vessels.

12 frigates would be a massive capability/investment for this small island. Also the v-class mcvs are still relevant (although another 6 asw helos would be a significant jump in asw capabilities).
I agree that is probably cheaper to just build another 6 Formidables or streched versions. The Formidables are well armed with 32 Aster 15/30s, 8 SSM harpoons and torps. But they are no where near being fully armed. They can carry much more weaponry. I would like to think of them as mid-sized arsenal ships. Look at these photos; http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=105325&page=55 .

Focus on the front, centre and back of the ship. You would notice that the ship has been built with expansion in mind. IMHO, the Formidables can accomodate more Slyver launchers and Aster missiles, SSMs and CIWS systems. All in good time; Singapore style.

I seriously doubt the Victory class corvettes will be around after the end of the next decade(30 years old). My mates in the navy concur as well. I have no doubt a replacement is already in the works. They will most likely be "Formidable" sized ships or larger.

But here is something we should take note. Singapore is officially looking at a viable Anti-ABM defense. A good and cheap option is one from across the sea. Hence, a larger Formidable version is possible incorporating an ABM track radar like the Smart-L.

But we will probably hear about it very late as usual(like the Delta/Formidable project frigates) and not a decade or several years in advance.

This was shown in the last Asian Aerospace in Singapore ;)

http://img393.imageshack.us/img393/4686/4e7a0aa7c8837477b5994e9xo3.jpg

In between the replacements for the Victory class corvettes, the RSN would defintely purchase new submarines to replace the old Challengers. Quite possibly A26s subs from Sweden to augment the AIP-equipped Vastergotlands.
 

Red

New Member
I.HAWK
F-5
C130H
35MM AA Guns
Super Puma AS 532M
KC130B
Fokker 50 MPA
Victory class corvettes
Centurion MBTs
RBS70
40MM Bofors guns on MCMV
Here`s my take.

F-5 - They are currently 45 F5 S/T versions upgraded to shoot Amraams and 8 more surveillance versions. They will be replaced by a mix of F15SG/F35s. I`d say 20 more F15SG and 25-30 F35s(similar to the recent Israeli purchase ;)).

C130H - A400s or C17s(new or even better 2nd hand ones so that the USAF can buy new ones)

35MM AA Guns - No idea. lol. Several options in the market.

Super Puma AS 532M - I have a feeling this will be used for a long time still. They are still good. Otherwise, I think they will be replaced with new Blackhawks for commonality`s sake with the Seahawks. NH-90 sounds even better. But I dont know if they are worth the price for the utility we will get with the Blackhawks vis-a-vis the NH90s. Im sure we can live without the extras in the NH90.

KC130B - KC130Js or 2nd hand KC130s.lol.Come on.They are just tankers.

Fokker 50 MPA - P-8s are nice. But they are kindda big with a large range. But the Fokker MPAs patrol beyond Singapore`s martime zones. And I do recall reading a report that the current MPAs are interim aircrafts for newer MPAs. Airbus has another one on offer. Between the Airbus version and the P-8, Singapore could purchase commercial aircrafts and convert them into MPAs like the current Fokker 50 MPAs; which have turned out into excellent excellent MPAs with 8 hardpoints for harpoons and torps each;

http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/1120/fokkerea5.png

http://www.fokker-aircraft.info/f50enf-phexz2.jpg

Victory class corvettes - New batch of 6 frigates. Formidable class or newer versions.

Centurion MBTs - They have already been replaced ;)

RBS70 - New Star-streaks?

I-hawks - Patriots/Meads, Asters, S-300(google around Singapore was/is interested in the system). I think Patriots/Meads is likely. It is different from RSN`s Asters so it is one more thing the enemy has to worry about. Price may be an issue then. But it is not now. Asters might be arguably more expensive too. There are not much choices when it comes to Mid range systems. It is unlikely that it would be the Spyder MR since the Spyder SR will replace the Rapiers.

Also, we should note that Singapore is looking at the possibility of acquring Anti-ABM systems. Patriots/Meads could work in tandem with the Israeli ARROW or Thaad. Asters 30s could work in tandem with the now in progress Aster 30 block 2 or Aster 45s ABM systems. So, these two systems offer stepped-up capabilities for an upper tier system in the future.

Rapiers - Spyder SR(already reported in the press)

40MM Bofors guns on MCMV - ? New copula. They are MCMVs afterall. Why would you need a super gun on a small minesweeper?
 
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OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Im sure you do not mean to say that. Must have been a typo. They are really for surveillance mate. Hermes 450s cannot be armed at all. You should know better.
Thanks Red for your comment, while there are sources that say that Hermes 450s is not armed, there are conflicting reports of it's UCAV capability, for example please see aviation week for story on armed Hermes 450 at this link: www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_generic.jsp?channel=awst&id=news/aw082106p2.xml

"The IDF says reconnaissance flights totaled more than 1,300, including manned and unmanned aircraft. However, within those unmanned flights, a classified capability was fielded, apparently for the first time. Armed UAVs were employed by the IAF throughout the war, but without any great visibility.

But toward the end of the conflict, few missiles were fired from UAVs during the daytime, and they were spotted by ground observers. A least one of them claimed he was in a convoy of civilian automobiles that was attacked...

U.S. aerospace officials point out that Northrop Grumman demonstrated missile-firing capability--with four Hellfire missiles, sensors and weapons pylons--using an IAI Heron derivative. Called the Hunter 2 for the U.S. Army's extended-range multi-purpose UAV program, the UAV was demonstrated in January 2005. The system was subsequently deployed to Iraq carrying the Viper Strike weapons package, but it was only used in the surveillance role. However, as early as 2003, the IAF was planning to arm UAVs...

Rafael developed the Spike-ER (extended-range) missile, with a range of about 5 mi., that offers a dual electro-optical and infrared seeker to help locate concealed targets (AW&ST June 16, 2003, p. 151). Another advantage over the Hellfire is that the Spike can be flown into the target by an operator, or it can be operated as a fire-and-forget system.

In fact, Rafael has devised several air-launched configurations for Spike-ER, including a four-pack launcher for use on such attack helicopters as the Cobra, but also two-pack versions for smaller rotorcraft. A Hermes 450, with a payload capacity of around 150 kg. (330 lb.), is able to carry two missiles with launcher equipment."
 
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LazerLordz

New Member
Verified Defense Pro
Yes Captain. I agree. RSN`s future ships will be undermanned in the sense that there will be more automation but they will be bigger in size. I do not see an issue with this at all. Especially since in wartime, crew complement will be increased with naval conscript reserves.

Formidables can operate with a 60 man crew. That is a lesser crew complement than the Victory class corvette. The 12000-13000 ton DDX need about 97-100 crew to function.
True, while reserves can be complementary, one cannot lose sight of the core regular fighting group because war is not something we face daily. And daily ops require efficient planning.
 

Red

New Member
Interesting stuffs. Thanks. Yes. Land-based radars are another option as well; tied to missile systems on land and sea. But Im always worried about having one or two highly critical and expensive systems sited on land where they are so exposed to enemy precision strikes or covert assaults. No doubt you can move these radars around. But there are only so many locations you can go in Singapore and you will still see them using Google Earth.

I dont think Singapore is considering about having an ABM system anymore. I think Singapore is considering about the systems they want to put in place to support an ABM system; now or in the future when they will be needed. The threat is real. Im not talking about just North Korea. And the hedge is not just for military purposes but diplomatically as well.

Interestingly, the Russians have been reported to be peddling Iskander complexes(short range ballistic missile systems) in the region recently.

I did read an article which mentioned about the Phalcon ability to detect ballistic missile launches. But I think that would be restricted to the range of the Phalcons; i.e around 350-400 km.
 
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