Go Back   DefenceTalk Forum - Military & Defense Forums > Global Defense & Military > Geo-strategic Issues

Defense News
Land, Air & Naval Forces






Military Photos
Latest Military Pictures
Defense Reports
Aerospace & Defence


North Korean Military.

This is a discussion on North Korean Military. within the Geo-strategic Issues forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; USSR economy was subsidized by VERY small amount by Oil & Gas revenue. USSR exported 1/3 of current ex-USSR countries ...


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 1 votes, 5.00 average.
Old April 22nd, 2008   #46
Super Moderator
General
Feanor's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Under your bed. No seriously, take a look.
Posts: 14,998
Threads:
Quote:
USSR economy was subsidized by VERY small amount by Oil & Gas revenue. USSR exported 1/3 of current ex-USSR countries export - and that for much more diversified export and economic.
Do you have statistics? Please, I would be very interested in seeing them.
Feanor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 22nd, 2008   #47
New Member
Private
No Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 25
Threads:
for the economy or the military?
X6958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 23rd, 2008   #48
Super Moderator
General
Feanor's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Under your bed. No seriously, take a look.
Posts: 14,998
Threads:
Notice what I quoted? My post was a reply to the quoted text.
Feanor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 24th, 2008   #49
Senior Member
Brigadier General
No Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,590
Threads:
1976 - last year USSR published export data for oil - whole USSR exported ~140m ton.

2006, Russia alone exported ~ 300m ton. Other CIS countries probably exported almost as much.

1976 - USSR consumed 3/4 own oil produced.
2006 - Russia consumed ~ 1/3 oil produced. Other CIS countries consumed even less oil...
For gas we will have even worse picture.. For metals - USSR almost didnt export them, everything was consumed for the benefits of own citizens - ex-USSR - exports most metals produced...

Now tell me which economy is based on natural resources export - and which was not...
Chrom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 24th, 2008   #50
Defense Enthusiast
Corporal
No Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Beijing
Posts: 104
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrom View Post
1976 - last year USSR published export data for oil - whole USSR exported ~140m ton.

2006, Russia alone exported ~ 300m ton. Other CIS countries probably exported almost as much.

1976 - USSR consumed 3/4 own oil produced.
2006 - Russia consumed ~ 1/3 oil produced. Other CIS countries consumed even less oil...
For gas we will have even worse picture.. For metals - USSR almost didnt export them, everything was consumed for the benefits of own citizens - ex-USSR - exports most metals produced...

Now tell me which economy is based on natural resources export - and which was not...
I have read both your post

With great respect to russian, but I would like to state some reasons to explain why soviet cannot copy the chinese road

1st why china attracts many invester in early 80s is simply because we have the world lowest salary and world's most diligent workers. Given into consideration that Soviet's GDP per capita is much higher than China, you can not be that attrative in the eyes of foreign invester.

2nd Chinese goverment gave many policy privilege to the foreign invester---they actually made the tax charging on the foreign invester comparatively lower than even native enterprises. In soviet, these actions will soon be labled as selling soviet to capitalist and most people would not agree.

3 Soviet was already a superpower, which means she has global strategic territory both in the form of realm and in the form of prestige. China at that time can say: market economy is good and lose nothing. But once soviet announce the same context, she will be deemed as surrendering to the west.
In that condition soviet will lose all her satelite states and international prestige. And that condition will also encourage the people to further question on goverment's validity and destroy the goverment prestige in people's mind


To conclude, If I compare china to a old car at that time, soviet is an old but high speed train. you can turn a car once you want to drive onto another road, however, for a train, a sharp turn means derailment.

In history, there is alot of example to illustrate the idea that in a country with great policy momentum,A sharp reform would only make the regime collapsed quicker. this problem is not only about the political but also about the society

BTW: it seems to me that the political form in russia is OK, at least you manage to build up an almost balanced society neither too left nor too right.

your election also makes the mechanism of feedback a closed circle , which means the citizens has a legal pipe to express their attitude and influence the public policy with respect to their different weight.

tired of western brainwashing about either democratic or nodemocratic, I thought your current political form is well suited for your social progress.

Last edited by ever4244; April 24th, 2008 at 09:33 PM.
ever4244 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 24th, 2008   #51
New Member
Private
No Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 25
Threads:
sorry about that, but yeah the USSR already had a powerful economy, they could have exported to third-world allies on a larger scale, and yeah i agree china was only really attractive cuz it was so cheap (capitalism for you)
X6958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 24th, 2008   #52
Defense Enthusiast
Corporal
No Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Beijing
Posts: 104
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by X6958 View Post
sorry about that, but yeah the USSR already had a powerful economy, they could have exported to third-world allies on a larger scale, and yeah i agree china was only really attractive cuz it was so cheap (capitalism for you)
my words are wasted```

what I try to demonstrate is that the china's situation allow it a consistent reform while the situation in russia do not allow

If everything is so simple like PC game, where you change the national policy with a click, there won't be revolution anymore.

The soviet forms a dead lock himslef. (without reform, economy cannot sustain, but if they reform, the political system will collapse even sooner) only by revolution this dead lock can be resolved

russia's peace revolution can be considered to be a success. and I think current form of russian(right now, not 10 years ago) political architecture is open and sustainable.--government's authority is strong enough to push forward social and economical reform while still too weak to undermind the social balance.
ever4244 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 24th, 2008   #53
Super Moderator
General
Feanor's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Under your bed. No seriously, take a look.
Posts: 14,998
Threads:
The problem of course being that modern Russia is subsidizing industry by the formation of government concerns. While foreign investment is fairly major, so is the drain of funds. Finally inflation makes the rise in real wages much smaller then it appears to be.

Chrom do you have sources please? Thanks.
Feanor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 25th, 2008   #54
Banned Member
Captain
No Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 763
Threads:
Exclamation

Is the ruble backed by gold now? Russia has plenty of gold in Siberia- if there's not enough $ the bullion will do! Huge natural resources and black economy are what has sustained enefficient centrally planned Soviet system!
Firehorse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 26th, 2008   #55
Senior Member
Brigadier General
No Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,590
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firehorse View Post
Is the ruble backed by gold now? Russia has plenty of gold in Siberia- if there's not enough $ the bullion will do! Huge natural resources and black economy are what has sustained enefficient centrally planned Soviet system!
There were no black economy in USSR to speak of. Contrary, in most cases various state enterprises reported somewhat higher output than in reality. Planned system was only partially inefficient - in some case in was awfully inefficient compared to West, in other areas much more effective. Most problems were in light industry, consumer goods and consumer service area. Big heavy industry, transport, medicine, social relations, children education and training - were better in USSR.

Ruble is not backed by gold or anything. Since US dollars goes bankrupt in later 60 and abandoned gold relations - i think no major currency in the world is backed by gold or anything similar.

P.S. Of course, no direct comparison between China and USSR possible. I just wanted to stress one thing - slow reforms (no revolution) is almost always better for any country economy than rapid, revolutionary reforms.
Chrom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 26th, 2008   #56
Senior Member
Brigadier General
No Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,590
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor View Post

Chrom do you have sources please? Thanks.
Which sources?
Chrom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 26th, 2008   #57
Super Moderator
General
Feanor's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Under your bed. No seriously, take a look.
Posts: 14,998
Threads:
Quote:
1976 - last year USSR published export data for oil - whole USSR exported ~140m ton.

2006, Russia alone exported ~ 300m ton. Other CIS countries probably exported almost as much.

1976 - USSR consumed 3/4 own oil produced.
2006 - Russia consumed ~ 1/3 oil produced. Other CIS countries consumed even less oil...
For gas we will have even worse picture.. For metals - USSR almost didnt export them, everything was consumed for the benefits of own citizens - ex-USSR - exports most metals produced...
I'm wondering where you got these numbers. If you could post sources it would be appreciated.
Feanor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 2nd, 2008   #58
Banned Member
Private
No Avatar
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 19
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yasin20 View Post
yeah but the 50year old atique can still kill you
haha indeed.
ArmyAmy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 3rd, 2008   #59
Senior Member
Brigadier General
No Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,590
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor View Post
I'm wondering where you got these numbers. If you could post sources it would be appreciated.
There are some payable sources - f.e. this book is good one http://books.google.de/books?id=Mvfe...vldS8Vu4&hl=en

However, some basic facts about USSR / Russia can be found in open internet - f.e.
http://www.gravmag.com/oil.html

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/Russia/Oil.html
Chrom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 4th, 2008   #60
Senior Member
Brigadier General
Ozzy Blizzard's Avatar
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 1,842
Threads:
My 2c...

The USSR could not have gone down a similar path to PROC. As has been stated above the soviet union could not have emulated chinese growth because they would not have the same growth mechanism. PROC's economic rise is based on western demand and cheap manufacture. USSR's economic ineficiency + a relatively high standard of liveing & social benefits meant that even if the cold war thawed and Moscow allowed large scale western investment (which was never, ever going to happen) the USSR would not have become the wests manufacturing base. Claiming that the soviet union would look like PROC today if a few decisions had been made differently or less propaganda had been used is compleatly inaccurate IMO.

Swerve got it right, by the 80's economically the USSR was a basket case, even if GDP growth was high. Internal economic inefficiencies were starting to tell by the 80's, which pretty clearly illustrates the incapability of central planning to handle a large and sophistocated, 20th century economy.
Ozzy Blizzard is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:17 PM.