Manning the NZ Army

NZLAV

New Member
We all know that the New Zealand had a problem with manning their 105 new NZLAV armoured fighting vehicles. The New Zealand army has now managed to man them all but what would happen if New Zealand was to increase their armour by adding a tracked IFV. Would New Zealand be able to man them?

Currently the NZDF has a $4.6 billion 10-year project to increase the NZDF by 2000 personal, 1000 going to the army. A NZLAV is manned by 3 soliders (driver, gunner and plants/equipment operator.) The New Zealand army has around 5000 full time solders and that number will increase to around 6000 by 2012.

If New Zealand was to purchase a tracked IFV, how would they go about manning them? I believe that as soon as a NZ resident finishes school, they should have to do around 6-12 months of military conscription. I believe this would sort out the problems with the youth. Also I think that any youth in NZ that commints 3 small acts of crime in 2 years should have to join the military under law for 2 years. This would certainly sort out the youth.
 
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Simon9

Defense Professional
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I don't think it's a good idea at all to make convicted criminals (even small-time crims) join the military. The days of Wellington's 'scum of the earth' army are well gone.

Would you want that sort of person beside you in the military? I sure wouldn't.

I'm not sure I'd want anyone who didn't want to be there, so personally I'm against conscription too, but I don't mind the idea of a 6 or 9 month army course like they have in Germany. The problem is it costs a LOT of money and after getting soldiers to the stage where they are useful to the army, they leave again and you have a new batch of raw recruits.

Maybe NZ could try a Ready Reserve scheme like they had in Australia in the early 90s - 12 or 18 months full-time service after leaving school followed by a few years in the TA.
 

icelord

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Maybe NZ could try a Ready Reserve scheme like they had in Australia in the early 90s - 12 or 18 months full-time service after leaving school followed by a few years in the TA.
Thats what will be happening here as of 2008, for 12 months all 3 services will allow those who take a gap year to have 12months of service, with option of follow on, they cannot be deployed, unless they sign for full time regular, and even if they don't continue on, they can go Reserve.
This would do well for New Zealand, as it would allow a hands on experience and also a few more Sh*t kickers would'nt hurt too much either, hell theres a few more hands for the IPVs, as that would'nt count as being deployed.
I like the Swiss model, where everyone serves, and is trained, this is the ideal Conscription option, as in times of war, all of the Swiss can mobilize, and are trained to fight, however, this ONLY works for the Neutral Swiss, and as much as Kiwi pollies would like it, they won't be getting their nuts cut off any time soon, they just like to rip one of at a time, alah no fighters.
Plus in New Zealand your up against a hell of alot of oppisition, it might even be easier to do here then over there.
 

Boolag

New Member
We all know that the New Zealand had a problem with manning their 105 new NZLAV armoured fighting vehicles. The New Zealand army has now managed to man them all but what would happen if New Zealand was to increase their armour by adding a tracked IFV.

the NZDF made a decsion to Phase out Tracked combat and logistic vehicles from its inventory following the LAV purchase as well as to utilise only one type of AFV..It is highly unlikely that tracked vehicles will make a comeback in the NZ Army within the next decade...unless there is a change in govt and or NZDF leadership, the way it stands now- A LOT of money was invested in the NZLAV project and the army better be happy with them, cos they are probably going to be in sevice for at least the next 20+ years, the best we can hope for is that the army buys surplus units from Canada, or the states in a few years...ie LAV III or Stryker.

Its all just speculation mind you.....:rolleyes:
 
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kiwitrooper

New Member
1. The NZLAV is crewed by a driver, gunner, and crew commander! Not plant operator or whatever you said.

2. If the army has managed to crew all 105 NZLAV (which I doubt) I would be very doubtful of 80% of the 105 crews competancy. As most would have very little armoured experiance, and most would be converted from other trade streams i.e infantry. It is not just as easy as sending someone on a course i.e NZLAV driver's course, and at the end of six weeks or whatever the course duration is expect them to be fully trained and competant on all things involved in driving an armored vehicle.
This is not a unimog or whatever, there is alot more to it. Like formations,contact drills,hide/harbours etc.
It gets harder when you try and convert an infantry corporal into a crew commander from scratch as he will have to learn all three positions and learn alot of tactics etc.
The NZ army lost a hell of alot of experianced armoured crewmen after Timor, and more once they were posted to 1RNZIR. Alot were crew commanders with five plus years experiance. This is something that cannot be replaced quickly. Bearing in mind that the corporal level is one of the most if not the most important ranks in the army.
All this plus the level of continuation training or lack of (QA SQN has had no live 25mm this year) leaves me with serious doubts as to the standard of New Zealands armoured forces.
I am not saying everyone is at a poor level as there are alot of very good instructors left who are no doubt doing all they can to lift the standard, but with little money for training the results are clear.
 

Simon9

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
At the risk of stating the bleedin' obvious... New Zealand REALLY needs to increase its defence spending % of GDP to a level commensurate with other developed nations. I believe it's usually of the order of 0.9% to 1.0%, compared with Australia's 2.5%+.

There is no reason they couldn't do it, except the lack of political and public will.
 

Stuart Mackey

New Member
snip

There is no reason they couldn't do it, except the lack of political and public will.
And political and public will is what counts, sorry.
As to the question of manning {personing?} the NZDF, they would do well to pay people properly. Its amazing how recruitment and retention can be effected by a persons perception of pay vs effort and such things as paying a mortgage and raising children.
 

stryker NZ

New Member
exactly boost the pay a bit before buying more equipment the military needs to look like an attractive option or people aint gonna want to join up. And i know there has resently been pay increases but where still behind countries like the US and Australia.
 

rjmaz1

New Member
Pay increases are the only way to go, that way you attract more than your high school drop out.

The army has always been considered as the last resort to alot of young guys in Australia if they fail to get a job in a civilian field. They failed to get a civilian job for a reason. If the pay is increased to the point where it now becomes an attractive option then you will get higher quality people joining.

Its good to see that New Zealand is putting its army as the main priority. A small isolated country like New Zealand doesn't really need an active Navy or Combat aircraft in the air force. A P-3 orion can patrol more ocean than any single Navy ship and can do it much faster and with a fraction of the manpower. A simple coast guard style Navy can then be then directed.
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Pay increases are the only way to go, that way you attract more than your high school drop out.

The army has always been considered as the last resort to alot of young guys in Australia if they fail to get a job in a civilian field. They failed to get a civilian job for a reason. If the pay is increased to the point where it now becomes an attractive option then you will get higher quality people joining.

Its good to see that New Zealand is putting its army as the main priority. A small isolated country like New Zealand doesn't really need an active Navy or Combat aircraft in the air force. A P-3 orion can patrol more ocean than any single Navy ship and can do it much faster and with a fraction of the manpower. A simple coast guard style Navy can then be then directed.
I disagree to a certain extent. No-one joins the Army (of NZ or Australia) for the money. More can be made in "menial" jobs, that still have better conditions. Simply increasing the pay cannot improve recruiting level in a realistic sense.

Unless your talking about $100K+ per year salaries (for the most part, which is ridiculous) neither Australia nor NZ can afford to pay "decent" wages.

No-one joining the Australian Army and I daresay the NZ Army is a "high school" dropout these days. The days of ill-educated persons being recruited into Armies is long gone and the standards even for direct entry as an O/R is far beyond a lot of "civilian jobs".

To boost recruitment, a fundamental re-think of the conditions of military service is required. This means that organisational change is required, something not easily accepted by militaries...

As to the P-3C mission, what've you said is true but an aircraft, even a P-3 lacks persistence. Only a frigate or destroyer can provide such, as well as the combat capability required.
 

stryker NZ

New Member
I disagree to a certain extent. No-one joins the Army (of NZ or Australia) for the money. More can be made in "menial" jobs, that still have better conditions. Simply increasing the pay cannot improve recruiting level in a realistic sense.

Unless your talking about $100K+ per year salaries (for the most part, which is ridiculous) neither Australia nor NZ can afford to pay "decent" wages.

No-one joining the Australian Army and I daresay the NZ Army is a "high school" dropout these days. The days of ill-educated persons being recruited into Armies is long gone and the standards even for direct entry as an O/R is far beyond a lot of "civilian jobs".

To boost recruitment, a fundamental re-think of the conditions of military service is required. This means that organisational change is required, something not easily accepted by militaries...

As to the P-3C mission, what've you said is true but an aircraft, even a P-3 lacks persistence. Only a frigate or destroyer can provide such, as well as the combat capability required.

i agree i finish my last day of school tomorrow and im joining the RNZN if i had wanted the money i would be getting a job in the commercial shipping industry. Although pay increases would help alot to get more people the NZDF needs some good PR to get people of my age to join up i mean im pretty sure out of a school of 2500 im the only one wanting to join the military, even the drop outs would rather do something else, a campiagn that highlights the benefits of the military needs to be done.
 

Lucasnz

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I have a question for the ex NZ Army types (having been in the opposition - navy)

While I understand the basis of the regimental system and why it exists. I am curious to know how effective it is given the NZ army's small size. Given the RM are a similar size (almost) but don't operate a regimental system.

Also what sort of personnel numbers are taken up with directly administering the Regimental / Corps.

Thanks for the help in advance.
 

icelord

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
out of a school of 2500 im the only one wanting to join the military, even the drop outs would rather do something else, a campiagn that highlights the benefits of the military needs to be done.
Its actually quite the opposite for people who went to my school, as a fair few are now heading for the ADF, with several booked for kapooka already. Being a boring town kinda helps as well:rolleyes:
 

NZLAV

New Member
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Sorry, I got the third crew member wrong (I don't know where I got that from??) To correct you, the NZLVS will be fully manned next month with 96 crews.
 

abramsteve

New Member
Its actually quite the opposite for people who went to my school, as a fair few are now heading for the ADF, with several booked for kapooka already. Being a boring town kinda helps as well:rolleyes:
Yep, same experience here. I finnished last year and have 4 of my mates in (2 RAAF, 1 Navy and 1 Army) and another couple seriously giving it some though after their gap year. Maybe its in the water (but I doubt it due to the lack of it) or maybe its the advertising. Doubt the latter aswel becuase its not that prevelant. I think it has alot to do with the public perception.
 

stryker NZ

New Member
Yep, same experience here. I finnished last year and have 4 of my mates in (2 RAAF, 1 Navy and 1 Army) and another couple seriously giving it some though after their gap year. Maybe its in the water (but I doubt it due to the lack of it) or maybe its the advertising. Doubt the latter aswel becuase its not that prevelant. I think it has alot to do with the public perception.
yeah but you guys are from Australia and stop me if im wrong here but Aussies have always struck me as being far more patriotic and willing to serve in the military than us NZers.
 

icelord

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
yeah but you guys are from Australia and stop me if im wrong here but Aussies have always struck me as being far more patriotic and willing to serve in the military than us NZers.
Its only really picked up in last 5 years, where the next generation (those between 15-25) have become more interested in history(depending on the interpretation of the teacher) and the whole symbolism of the Flag and Aussie Culture.:australia
The ADF has always been a way off life for many generations, with a lot of father/son Serving members(and mother/daughter for the PC group.) and the role of the ANZAC and Gallopili is told with great pride and sacrafice, plus it helps australias patriotism when we thrash the POMS and Kiwis at cricket.:flame
 

stryker NZ

New Member
Its only really picked up in last 5 years, where the next generation (those between 15-25) have become more interested in history(depending on the interpretation of the teacher) and the whole symbolism of the Flag and Aussie Culture.:australia
The ADF has always been a way off life for many generations, with a lot of father/son Serving members(and mother/daughter for the PC group.) and the role of the ANZAC and Gallopili is told with great pride and sacrafice, plus it helps australias patriotism when we thrash the POMS and Kiwis at cricket.:flame
you may beat us at cricket, soccer, basketball, hockey etc but we pwn you at Rugby:D now if only we could be so patriotic when it came to the NZDF
 

icelord

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
you may beat us at cricket, soccer, basketball, hockey etc but we pwn you at Rugby now if only we could be so patriotic when it came to the NZDF
Rugby, bunch of Shielas rolling around in the mud really, got nothing on League.:p2
problem with patriotism is, you need for something to get it built up, Rugby is a fine example of Kiwis patriotism, but how you let that spill over into the NZDF is another story, maybe a few Mini-series on kiwis in war would help, that way the people could learn what they have done in the past wars, alongside their Aussie mates in ANZAC spirit:D
 

stryker NZ

New Member
Rugby, bunch of Shielas rolling around in the mud really, got nothing on League.:p2
problem with patriotism is, you need for something to get it built up, Rugby is a fine example of Kiwis patriotism, but how you let that spill over into the NZDF is another story, maybe a few Mini-series on kiwis in war would help, that way the people could learn what they have done in the past wars, alongside their Aussie mates in ANZAC spirit:D
:eek i cant believe you just said that but anyway there are a few of those series on at the moment and they are pretty good ones called Kiwis at war but im the only one of the people i know who watches them. (docos arnt really that popular with teenagers most of my friends knowledge on war and history comes from video games)
 
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