Australia & US Military Co-operation

[aussienscale]

Link for an article in the Weekend Australian
US forces get nod to share our bases | The Australian

Australia and the US have agreed to an increase in US presence in SE Asia with ramped up access to Australian Bases, training areas and will include more ship visits, regular training exercises and increased personnel in the country, The article report this will begin within months.
3 major anouncements will be made after Monday's AUSMIN talks in Melbourne and is being touted as the most significant in its 25 year history

This has obviously been in the air for some time of course, but how much more significance do you think this will have with the recent agreement between the UK & France ? The potential (and has been discussed the real) impacts this could have will be interesting to say the least. Could the US potentially make heavy investment into our military infrastructure ?

I would be very curious in other members thoughts on what this means for Australia ? Is this the beginning of a major shift in our relationship with the US, are they now seeing us as one of their staunches allies ? We have certainly been unwavering in our common interests and our support for the US has never been in question

What impacts, positive or negative, do you see for the ADF ? and do you see this as a reply to China's SE Asian build up ?

 

[t68]

Link for an article in the Weekend Australian
US forces get nod to share our bases | The Australian

Australia and the US have agreed to an increase in US presence in SE Asia with ramped up access to Australian Bases, training areas and will include more ship visits, regular training exercises and increased personnel in the country, The article report this will begin within months.
3 major anouncements will be made after Monday's AUSMIN talks in Melbourne and is being touted as the most significant in its 25 year history

This has obviously been in the air for some time of course, but how much more significance do you think this will have with the recent agreement between the UK & France ? The potential (and has been discussed the real) impacts this could have will be interesting to say the least. Could the US potentially make heavy investment into our military infrastructure ?

I would be very curious in other members thoughts on what this means for Australia ? Is this the beginning of a major shift in our relationship with the US, are they now seeing us as one of their staunches allies ? We have certainly been unwavering in our common interests and our support for the US has never been in question

What impacts, positive or negative, do you see for the ADF ? and do you see this as a reply to China's SE Asian build up ?

Australia has been pro American ever since 1942 and with the fall of Singapore and the response from the mother county England virtual abandonment of the pacific to keep the fight up with the Axis power (which to a decree i don’t relay blame them what’s the use of going under in Europe before protecting the territories ).

With PM Curtain looking to America and the long historical involvement of the ADF working with the US to curry favour in protecting Australian interests as we are far too small to protect ourselves from any perceived invasion of Australia.. I wonder if the Brisbane line is still part of Australia military thinking but we will never know.

The strategic value of the alliance between Aus/US is a mutual undertaking for both sides, we come under the US nuclear deterrence umbrella and the US has access to strategic ports in the pacific and Indian oceans as well as various sites’ for monitoring electronic signal and satellite tracking.

The US already have use of facility here in Australia, B2 spirit bomber’s regularly fly out here from CONUS for long range bombing missions have dedicated areas at most of our RAAF bases where personnel are permanently based USAF already has a small foot print in Australia.

United States Military Sealift Command's Prepositioning Program would be an ideal partner program for Australia. With China expansion in the region it makes perfect scenes to combine resources in the pacific region, hopefully New Zealand can settle their difference with the US to be a part of a full participating partner of the ANZUS alliance become what it used to be.

On the intelligence sharing side of the house i cannot see much changing but more of how we handle what we receive and know with the UK/French connection it will go along the lines of what we could share we the Kiwis when the fell out of favour with the US.

 

[icelord]

With PM Curtain looking to America and the long historical involvement of the ADF working with the US to curry favour in protecting Australian interests as we are far too small to protect ourselves from any perceived invasion of Australia.. I wonder if the Brisbane line is still part of Australia military thinking but we will never know.

The Navy call it the Cairns line, we will sacrafice Darwin but they wont get past cairns, best piss run in the Country!!:cheers

The strategic value of the alliance between Aus/US is a mutual undertaking for both sides, we come under the US nuclear deterrence umbrella and the US has access to strategic ports in the pacific and Indian oceans as well as various sites’ for monitoring electronic signal and satellite tracking.

The US already have use of facility here in Australia, B2 spirit bomber’s regularly fly out here from CONUS for long range bombing missions have dedicated areas at most of our RAAF bases where personnel are permanently based USAF already has a small foot print in Australia.

United States Military Sealift Command's Prepositioning Program would be an ideal partner program for Australia. With China expansion in the region it makes perfect scenes to combine resources in the pacific region, hopefully New Zealand can settle their difference with the US to be a part of a full participating partner of the ANZUS alliance become what it used to be.

On the intelligence sharing side of the house i cannot see much changing but more of how we handle what we receive and know with the UK/French connection it will go along the lines of what we could share we the Kiwis when the fell out of favour with the US.

The idea of US basing was made open by US Secretary Robert Gates when he was last here, and further backed by the US joint Chief earlier in the year. The hint was Darwin holding either a forward base for US marines to Use in the region or on Excercise in the area or a US small base, something similar or slightly larger to Singapores joint base which has a US NEX and Logistics office for Asia region.(Kiwi security, UK owned, US provided, Aus utilised base...we either pay the electricity bill or just mooch)

Military Sealift Prepositioning would be interesting as they would then need somewhere that could have the ships at anchor or berthed and be secure at all times. This doesnt open many options as most ports are heaviliy used up north.

The US already have base use here with Pine Gap heavily utilised by US NSA and military, in link with DSD and ADF personnel who work there. Darwin is a regular stop for USN ships in the region, and Stirling is a used by USN submarines for training and R & R visits. The Excercise areas off the coast give the US the chance to play with collins class subs(when they sail) and some other more sensitive training options.
Talisman Sabre is always a good point of how big a training excercise Australia itself becomes, US Marines and ADF forces invade Shoalwater, while Surface combatants and subs play games off the East coast before bombarding the area. Up north RAAF fly with US Carrier group aircraft and RAN ships form part of the groups Air Guard. While USAF bombers destroy outback Aus after leaving RAAF airfields and barebones bases. Every two years the US arrives for a solid attack, and looking at next years assets slated for TS11, it will be a big event for both countries in value of the alliance.

 

[RubiconNZ]

This is on topic but on a tangent, can anyone here provide information on the recent
Exercise Hamel, this was a major exercise, but received very little press, was this due to the fact that 300 NZDF were involved, with a large US-ADF exercise, before the Wellington agreement was signed, the NZDF played the op-force.
I think the entire 3rd Brigade was involved, and the USMC took part, oh Guam based B-52's did bombing runs, and there was a full scale Para insertion, this was our Talisman Sabre in terms of troop investment. 6000 Soldiers, yet no true break down of who or what was there.
I guess to summarize, why when the ADF has been quite good of late getting info out there did this one run so silent, is this poor media attention, been kept low key due to Hillary Clinton's visit or have I just missed something?

 

[icelord]

This is on topic but on a tangent, can anyone here provide information on the recent
Exercise Hamel, this was a major exercise, but received very little press, was this due to the fact that 300 NZDF were involved, with a large US-ADF exercise, before the Wellington agreement was signed, the NZDF played the op-force.
I think the entire 3rd Brigade was involved, and the USMC took part, oh Guam based B-52's did bombing runs, and there was a full scale Para insertion, this was our Talisman Sabre in terms of troop investment. 6000 Soldiers, yet no true break down of who or what was there.
I guess to summarize, why when the ADF has been quite good of late getting info out there did this one run so silent, is this poor media attention, been kept low key due to Hillary Clinton's visit or have I just missed something?

Id say the best you will get till the next Army News or Defence Magazine
Image Galleries 2010 - Department of Defence

 

[RubiconNZ]

Id say the best you will get till the next Army News or Defence Magazine
Image Galleries 2010 - Department of Defence

Thanks Icelord, a new image gallery is good, I was hoping for a bit in todays edition of the Army news, but oh well another fortnight.

 

[Raven22]

Hamel wasn't very exciting. Apparently 'complex' is just another word for 'boring'.

As to ex participants - Blue force consisted of 3 Bde minus 1 RAR, a combined arms battlegroup from 1 Bde including tanks and M113s, and a single USMC rifle coy that spent its entire time sitting and Camp Mackalany acting as the task group reserve. There was also the usual attachments including helicopters (Tiger, Blackhawk, Chinook, Kiowa), AP-3Cs, F/A-18s, B-52s etc.

Red force consisted of the Kiwi company in LAV IIIs, a squadron of ASLAVs from 2/14, a company in Bushmasters from 8/9 RAR and a couple of Kiwi UH-1Hs pretending to be Mi-28s.

 

[aussienscale]

Updated link to Ausmin 2010, not much real detail in there, but a few hints, obviously more information will be available in the coming week/months
AUSMIN

 

[riksavage]

On the intelligence sharing side of the house i cannot see much changing but more of how we handle what we receive and know with the UK/French connection it will go along the lines of what we could share we the Kiwis when the fell out of favour with the US.[/QUOTE]

The new French/UK agreement will not impact UK access to Aus or US intelligence as France is still NOT privy (nor is Germany, Italy or Spain) to information or intelligence gleaned through ECHELON or other proprietary intel resources (see below). Only the UK, US, Canada, Aus and NZ (?) have access.

ECHELON is a term associated with a global network of computers that automatically search through millions of intercepted messages for pre-programmed keywords or fax, telex and e-mail addresses. Every word of every message in the frequencies and channels selected at a station is automatically searched. The processors in the network are known as the ECHELON Dictionaries. ECHELON connects all these computers and allows the individual stations to function as distributed elements an integrated system. An ECHELON station's Dictionary contains not only its parent agency's chosen keywords, but also lists for each of the other four agencies in the UKUSA system [NSA, GCHQ, DSD, GCSB and CSE].

UK & US intelligence gathering is joined at the hip, the same way UK/USA SF operate as a dovetailed single entity in A-Stan. Intelligence sharing will not change simply because the UK JV's on selected miltary hardware programmes with France - let's keep things in perspective please. Aus leverages off the ECHELON super-computers located in both the US & UK, nothing will change, same go's for Aus passing intel to the Brit's.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

The new French/UK agreement will not impact UK access to Aus or US intelligence as France is still NOT privy (nor is Germany, Italy or Spain) to information or intelligence gleaned through ECHELON or other proprietary intel resources (see below). Only the UK, US, Canada, Aus and NZ (?) have access.

There’s a lot more to the intel agreements than just the operation of ECHELON.

UK & US intelligence gathering is joined at the hip, the same way UK/USA SF operate as a dovetailed single entity in A-Stan. Intelligence sharing will not change simply because the UK JV's on selected miltary hardware programmes with France - let's keep things in perspective please. Aus leverages off the ECHELON super-computers located in both the US & UK, nothing will change, same go's for Aus passing intel to the Brit's.

LOL. Some hips are a lot bigger than others. Working together does not mean reliance.

This issue as has been repeatedly explained to you is a lot more than just joint ventures in aircraft carriers. The UK and France are planning to establish high level joint headquarters. The US supplied intelligence to the UK for their HQs to peruse. It doesn’t supply that int to the French. Now the French are going to be in those UK HQs. You don’t need to be Einstein to put this 2 and 2 together to realise the USA may not feel so comfortable supplying that int to the UK anymore.

This smacks of a desperate logical construct to try and deny any negative consequences from these cut backs. The UK will still work very closely with the USA just the feed from the USA won’t be as high a level.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

As to ex participants - .

I noticed the CA was being driven around ex in a RAAF Bushmaster... Couldn't entrust his safety to the people he just stole their hats from?

 

[Aussie Digger]

I noticed the CA was being driven around ex in a RAAF Bushmaster... Couldn't entrust his safety to the people he just stole their hats from?

The Adgies should have worn their berets. The whole deployment of them...

I would have LOVED that.

 

[Raven22]

I noticed the CA was being driven around ex in a RAAF Bushmaster... Couldn't entrust his safety to the people he just stole their hats from?

That was NOT a RAAF Bushmaster. Those PMVs with the RAAF roundels on them are part of the pre-deployment training fleet that was being used by my unit for the Ex. We were strictly forbidden to remove the roundels. I actually picked up the CA from the LZ and drove him around in my own PMV for a a while, and of course I pointed out the lack of a stowage point for his slouch hat in the vehicle. He looked like he'd heard it all before, but it made me happy.

You weren't there on the VIP day were you Abe?

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Nope did not go to Ex Hamel. Didn't see the point of travelling all the way to Townsville just to stand around in the rain with only a single battle run to watch if lucky. Chong-Ju is much better!

 

[riksavage]

LOL. Some hips are a lot bigger than others. Working together does not mean reliance.

This issue as has been repeatedly explained to you is a lot more than just joint ventures in aircraft carriers. The UK and France are planning to establish high level joint headquarters. The US supplied intelligence to the UK for their HQs to peruse. It doesn’t supply that int to the French. Now the French are going to be in those UK HQs. You don’t need to be Einstein to put this 2 and 2 together to realise the USA may not feel so comfortable supplying that int to the UK anymore.

This smacks of a desperate logical construct to try and deny any negative consequences from these cut backs. The UK will still work very closely with the USA just the feed from the USA won’t be as high a level.

LOL I'm not going to get in to another p*ssing contest with you. My comment reference Echelon was simply reinforcing one of many aspects of the intelligence relationship between the US and UK, which is deeply ingrained and part of a much larger joint enterprise, which at the micro level is best illustrated by current UK/US joint SF/ISTAR operations in A-Stan, which leverages off strategic int gathered through GCHQ/NSA and other centers of excellence. Comments reinforced by the likes of yourself that the UK will be downgraded to the status of NZ is frankly ridiculous and belong in the relms of fantasy land.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Comments reinforced by the likes of yourself that the UK will be downgraded to the status of NZ is frankly ridiculous and belong in the relms of fantasy land.

Who said that? No one. If you're interpreting the statements by myself and GF and others to mean such then you are really missing the plot.

The facts are very simple. The USA provides the UK with an intelligence feed. This is basically a steady run of all the intel analysis it is accumulating around the world from its various assets. This level of data feed is only provided to the UK and Australia.

The USA is seriously concerned that the high level integration of the French into UK military HQs as provided for in the SDR will compromise this feed. Rather than compromise it they will turn it off.

But heah what do I know about this? I just sat down and talked with Richard Armitage for an hour when this feed was granted to Australia about how and why it works. So I guess I if this is just a ‘pissing contest’ I just name dropped the stream up and over the wall…

 

[Bonza]

LOL I'm not going to get in to another p*ssing contest with you. My comment reference Echelon was simply reinforcing one of many aspects of the intelligence relationship between the US and UK, which is deeply ingrained and part of a much larger joint enterprise, which at the micro level is best illustrated by current UK/US joint SF/ISTAR operations in A-Stan, which leverages off strategic int gathered through GCHQ/NSA and other centers of excellence. Comments reinforced by the likes of yourself that the UK will be downgraded to the status of NZ is frankly ridiculous and belong in the relms of fantasy land.

You quite clearly intend on getting into another pissing contest, because otherwise you wouldn't have the need to deliberately misinterpret people's responses as something they didn't say (that the UK's security/intel level would be downgraded to that of New Zealand) in order to continue obstinately defending your position. In fact, to drive home just how silly that misinterpretation is, here's an excerpt from the post to which you were responding:

The UK will still work very closely with the USA just the feed from the USA won’t be as high a level.

And yet you decide to equate that with "intel cooperation downgraded to the level of New Zealand"?

Change your engagement style, please. You're helping neither the discussion nor your case with this sort of behaviour.

 

[Raven22]

Nope did not go to Ex Hamel. Didn't see the point of travelling all the way to Townsville just to stand around in the rain with only a single battle run to watch if lucky. Chong-Ju is much better!

You didn't miss much, other than watching a light brigade try to command armour and attack aviation, or watch light infantry assault hills theoretically defended by T80s.

 

[tphuang]

There seems to be an increasing amount of public views aired from Australian defense community over the need to strengthen relation with America as PLAN expansion is unfolding.

From my perspective, I think Australia is going the wrong way here. I understand the long history of US & Australia military cooperation and the commonality between the 2 countries when it comes to language and culture. But I do think at some point, the defense community in Australia needs to realize that the rise of China poses far more benefits for Austalia than threat. There is no desire within China to pose any kind of real security threat toward Australia other than buying up all the raw materials it can buy from the country. In the coming years, China will become by far the largest trading partners to Australia. And much of Australia's economic future will be dependent on China as it had been dependent on USA for most of post WWII period.

I just don't see continuing to side with America to be in Australia's interest. I don't think most people realize how much trouble US is in financially right now. In order to achieve any kind of fiscal sanity, US gov't would have to dramatically cut down on its spending (including military and financial aid) that would really cut down American influence around the world. And we could even see that now with the tea party reps elected that the support for military spending in the Republican caucus is not going to be where it was. And even if the gov't doesn't choose to change now, it will be forced to change some day in the near future. When that happens, people will look at the recent cuts in British military and say that they got off easy.

Is it really worth treating your biggest trading partner as your enemy if it has no desire to do anything other than trade with you?

 

[OpinionNoted]

There seems to be an increasing amount of public views aired from Australian defense community over the need to strengthen relation with America as PLAN expansion is unfolding.

From my perspective, I think Australia is going the wrong way here. I understand the long history of US & Australia military cooperation and the commonality between the 2 countries when it comes to language and culture. But I do think at some point, the defense community in Australia needs to realize that the rise of China poses far more benefits for Austalia than threat. There is no desire within China to pose any kind of real security threat toward Australia other than buying up all the raw materials it can buy from the country. In the coming years, China will become by far the largest trading partners to Australia. And much of Australia's economic future will be dependent on China as it had been dependent on USA for most of post WWII period.

I just don't see continuing to side with America to be in Australia's interest. I don't think most people realize how much trouble US is in financially right now. In order to achieve any kind of fiscal sanity, US gov't would have to dramatically cut down on its spending (including military and financial aid) that would really cut down American influence around the world. And we could even see that now with the tea party reps elected that the support for military spending in the Republican caucus is not going to be where it was. And even if the gov't doesn't choose to change now, it will be forced to change some day in the near future. When that happens, people will look at the recent cuts in British military and say that they got off easy.

Is it really worth treating your biggest trading partner as your enemy if it has no desire to do anything other than trade with you?

A-chinas insatiable appetite for australian mining companies.
B-chinas growing influence on the boards of the companies theve aquired(end result being greater chinese imput over the pricing of australian commodities.)
C-No doubt an eventual chinese workforce participation in australian mining sector(Colonization by stealth.)

and not just china but a future india too...oh but wait with so much chinese influence in australia china will be dictating the terms to which australia can engage the world.

China poses far more benifits to australia lol

Also in regards to american influence on australia?...at the end of the day they are a cousin nation so...put that into whatever context you please,i wont be fussed.