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This is a discussion on ADF General discussion thread within the Geo-strategic Issues forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by Marc 1 Just announced - Mike Kelly. Least he has a background in defence and will be ...


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Old February 1st, 2013   #46
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Just announced - Mike Kelly.
Least he has a background in defence and will be a bit harder to bluff, wonder if he can knock some sence into gillard and the budget, not that it will make much of a difference now with the election being called, if anything it makes it harder for those with difficult portfolios to really achieve things without looking to rush thing before they are dumped, just hope it's not another hewson debacle and everyone thinking they will give Abboutt too much power and vote a different way.
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Old February 2nd, 2013   #47
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Just announced - Mike Kelly.
Actually I think you've got it slightly wrong.

Mike Kelly is taking over as the Minister for Defence Material from Jason Clare.

I believe that Smith is still the Def Min.

Anyway, couple more rats jumping ship from HMAS Gillard, wonder how many more rats will resign their posts in the comming months or not seek another term at the election?

Starting to appear more like NSW Labor, with all the "retiree's" before the NSW election last year, and we all know that happened there!
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Old February 2nd, 2013   #48
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Actually I think you've got it slightly wrong.

Mike Kelly is taking over as the Minister for Defence Material from Jason Clare.

I believe that Smith is still the Def Min.

Anyway, couple more rats jumping ship from HMAS Gillard, wonder how many more rats will resign their posts in the comming months or not seek another term at the election?

Starting to appear more like NSW Labor, with all the "retiree's" before the NSW election last year, and we all know that happened there!
Kelly has some reasonably competant shoes to fill. I was quite impressed with Jason Clare, only wish he was the defmin. Don't know much about Kelly though, I think in Gillards world they have handed him a poisoned chalice.
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Old May 2nd, 2013   #49
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The 2013 Defence White Paper was released this morning. Here's an overview from the Australian

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POTENT new electronic warfare aircraft that can freeze enemy missile defences over a huge area, the likelihood that the Navy's promised 12 new submarines will be a bigger evolved version of the Collins Class boats, and a more conciliatory approach to China, are key elements of the Gillard government's new defence white paper.

The document released today reveals that the RAAF will get 12 new Growler electronic attack aircraft instead of the original plan to refit 12 of its existing 24 Super Hornets as Growlers.

The government says that will not affect plans to buy around 100 fifth generation Joint Strike Fighters in the future.

Defence will get additional funding for the Growlers.

The number of options for replacing the Collins Class submarines has been cut from four or five to two - with the evolved Collins firming as the most likely but with an undertaking to include new technology that could well emerge overseas. The new submarines will be built in Australia.

The government will also bring forward replacement of the navy's Armidale Class patrol boats, which have been heavily used on border protection operations across Northern Australia.

That will be one of a number of key decisions designed to keep Australia's vital shipbuilding industry operating strongly and bridge the so-called “Valley of Death” expected when two giant landing ships now under construction are completed before the submarines are ready for construction.

Replacement supply ships may be built in Australia to replace HMAS Sirius and HMAS Success.

The white paper makes no commitment to acquiring advanced Hobart-class air warfare destroyers.

Neither does it make a firm decision on long-running proposals to acquire long-range surveillance drones to watch over Australia's northwest.

But Australia still plans to replace the RAAF's ageing AP-3C Orion maritime surveillance aircraft with Boeing P-8A aircraft and unmanned aircraft, with a final decision due later this decade.

The white paper is much more conciliatory towards China than the last strategy document released in 2009, which warned against China's growing military might in the Asia Pacific region.

It says Australia welcomes China's rise, which had brought positive economic benefits for Australia.

“The government does not believe that Australia must choose between its longstanding alliance with the United States and its expanding relationship with China, nor do the US and China believe we must make such a choice,” the paper says.

After being strongly criticised for cutting defence funding in the last budget to about 1.56 per cent of GDP, the government has undertaken to increase funding to 2 per cent of GDP when budgetary conditions allow.

The paper says the current national fiscal environment remains challenging, with lower revenue than expected, making it more difficult to return the budget to surplus.

“The government remains committed to a defence budget which ensure the ADF (Australian Defence Force) can meet the government's operational, force posture and preparedness requirements and deliver the core ADF capabilities the government requires to protect Australia's national security interests,” it says.

“And doing that with fiscal discipline and within the priority of improving the sustainability of the budget.”
Looks like 12 new Growlers to come, and a move toward ambiguous budget funding compared to past white papers.

Some people predicted a 4th Air Warfare Destroyer may have been included but most likely the recent budget shortfalls in revenue killed that discussion.

Last edited by King Wally; May 2nd, 2013 at 09:36 PM.
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Old May 3rd, 2013   #50
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Indo defence plans

Hey guys, while looking for information on the white paper today I came across an article about how Indonesia wants to beef up and modinise their defence forces which Is no problem for me. What I found strange is that they specifically state that they want to be and have a stronger and more modern defence force than what we have as we'll as Singapore etc. what does everyone think? Should we be flattered or worried?
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Old May 3rd, 2013   #51
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Hey guys, while looking for information on the white paper today I came across an article about how Indonesia wants to beef up and modinise their defence forces which Is no problem for me. What I found strange is that they specifically state that they want to be and have a stronger and more modern defence force than what we have as we'll as Singapore etc. what does everyone think? Should we be flattered or worried?
Heres a snippet from ABC.net.au

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Indonesian president Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono says his country should strive to have a more powerful military than Australia.

About 16,000 Indonesian troops are preparing for joint military exercises in East Java.

Meeting with military commanders, Mr Yudhoyono told them that Indonesia's military should be bigger and more modern than countries like Australia, Singapore and Malaysia.

Indonesia's military boasts 470,000 active troops, while the Australian Defence Force has just over 80,000 full-time personnel and reservists..

It has also embarked on a military upgrade program, building warships and drones, as well buying fighter jets, helicopters and rockets.
I honestly found the commentary most concerning given that it didn't come from a random General or Politician, it actually came from the President. Got to make you wonder doesn't it.
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Old May 3rd, 2013   #52
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Heres a snippet from ABC.net.au



I honestly found the commentary most concerning given that it didn't come from a random General or Politician, it actually came from the President. Got to make you wonder doesn't it.
It is probably a matter of pride and some concern that they, with the far greater size of their military and population see themselves as weaker than their smaller neighbours. I for one would be quite upset if NZ was more powerful than us, not out of fear but pride, I would be asking why? what are we doing wrong? etc.
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Old May 3rd, 2013   #53
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Heres a snippet from ABC.net.au



I honestly found the commentary most concerning given that it didn't come from a random General or Politician, it actually came from the President. Got to make you wonder doesn't it.
im waiting for the discovery of oil off Cocos or Christmas island, then a falklands style scenario to see what the goverment at the time would/could do.
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Old May 4th, 2013   #54
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im waiting for the discovery of oil off Cocos or Christmas island, then a falklands style scenario to see what the goverment at the time would/could do.
Buddy you and me think alike.... and to crazy specific levels.

Not saying I'm paranoid about it happening next week or anything but into the long term its on my mind. Particularly if oil/natural gas etc prices rise over time and total value hits critical levels.
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Old May 8th, 2013   #55
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Heres a snippet from ABC.net.au



I honestly found the commentary most concerning given that it didn't come from a random General or Politician, it actually came from the President. Got to make you wonder doesn't it.

I found this today saying that Indonesia is buying over hundred second hand tanks from Germany see this link for the article Germany To Sell Tanks to Indonesia | Defense News | defensenews.com.
It seems as though they are pushing ahead with getting more military kit, I just wonder why so many tanks? its not like they have huge expanses of area for tank warfare like we do here in Australia? And if Indo are involved in some type of conflict internaly lets say, how will they get these tanks from island to island they do seem to have a few of those!
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Old May 8th, 2013   #56
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Heres a snippet from ABC.net.au



I honestly found the commentary most concerning given that it didn't come from a random General or Politician, it actually came from the President. Got to make you wonder doesn't it.
From another thread this is what was actually said:

NKRI adalah harga mati. Kekuatan militer kita harus lebih besar dan modern dibanding negara-negara tetangga, seperti Singapura, Malaysia, Australia, dan lain-lain. Mengingat luas negara kita, kekuatan militer Indonesia mutlak harus lebih besar," Presiden SBY menegaskan.

translate it to English and you get

"Indonesia Unity/Integrity is final. Our military might should be more bigger and modern then our neighbours, such as Singapore, Malaysia, Australia, etc. Considering the size of our nation, our military might have to be bigger" the president SBY said.

So im of two minds;

A. it either was ABC being deliberate in what was translated or,
B. Poor translation of his interview?

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Old May 9th, 2013   #57
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I honestly found the commentary most concerning given that it didn't come from a random General or Politician, it actually came from the President. Got to make you wonder doesn't it.
Our military is the size it is at least partly, because of a long standing intent not to annoy or antagonise Indonesia.

Hell, we even notified them in advance last time we bought a new weapon for our Hornet fighters in case they got upset...

In case any missed the Gulf War of 1991, numbers mean very little these days and there is little about either the TNI or the ADF that is overtly threatening to one another.
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Old May 9th, 2013   #58
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Our military is the size it is at least partly, because of a long standing intent not to annoy or antagonise Indonesia.

Hell, we even notified them in advance last time we bought a new weapon for our Hornet fighters in case they got upset...

In case any missed the Gulf War of 1991, numbers mean very little these days and there is little about either the TNI or the ADF that is overtly threatening to one another.
I didn't think we worried each other, that's why I thought It was somewhat strange that we a Singapore etc were specifically mentioned when they stated who they want to be bigger and more modern than.
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Old May 9th, 2013   #59
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More rubbish by our jounalist to inspire the old fear of our northern neighbours. Keep in mind Indonesia's closest neighbours are are the 'five powers defence arrangement', it would make you feel a little isolated.
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Old May 9th, 2013   #60
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I didn't think we worried each other, that's why I thought It was somewhat strange that we a Singapore etc were specifically mentioned when they stated who they want to be bigger and more modern than.
They already are bigger than us. More modern? Ah, no and not likely ever to be unless their economy grows exponentially, whilst ours massively shrinks. If an idea of being more modern is typified by small purchases of fighter jets and a couple of tank battalions, then sure i hope some of them enjoy being more "modern".

The reality is, that stuff isn't capability it's assets. Unless you invest equally in every stage of capability development (and we can see Indonesia as an example doesn't appear to by virtue of limited to no weapons acquisitions at the very least) then what you have is a bunch of stuff that looks good at an airshow, at a parade, under scripted exercise events and so forth. There is no REAL substance to such acquisitions when it comes to genuine combat capability.

Not when you consider warfare against others who possess similarly advanced systems.
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