Go Back   DefenceTalk Forum - Military & Defense Forums > Global Defense & Military > Army & Security Forces

Defense News
Land, Air & Naval Forces

Military Photos
Latest Military Pictures
Defense Reports
Aerospace & Defence

South Africa Defense Equipment Copied by China

This is a discussion on South Africa Defense Equipment Copied by China within the Army & Security Forces forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; ...

Closed Thread
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old January 10th, 2009   #1
New Member
Bang-Bang's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 27
South Africa Defense Equipment Copied by China

China has had a number of dealings with South African weapons manufacturers over the past decade, most of which have not resulted in actual weapons purchases. However, several recent China-made military technologies bear suspicious resemblances to their South African counterparts.

In 2008, China acquired a fourth-generation air-to-air missile equipped with a thrust-vector control engine. The PL-10, or PL-ASR, is comparable to the U.S.-made AIM-9X air-to-air missile, or AAM.

According to a representative from the South African Denel Group, the PL-ASR is almost a replica of its A-Darter AAM. The Denel representative told the author during an interview in Cape Town that the Chinese had contacted the company in 2001 to explore the possibility of importing fifth-generation A-Darter infrared-guided AAMs, which included a TVC propulsion system and pilot helmet-mounted displays.

In the end, Denel did not sell the technologies to China, which it regards as its key competitor in selling air-to-air missiles on the African market. Company engineers were therefore surprised to find that the Chinese PL-ASR is nearly identical to the A-Darter in exterior structure, tail engine and even the diameter of the missile body.

The company strongly suspects that China reverse-engineered its A-Darter AAM after acquiring its technological materials.

This fits a pattern that China has followed in acquiring military technologies from many sources. When seeking a new technology, China contacts a foreign manufacturer and requests substantial technical information about its product, supposedly with the intent to buy. Instead, Chinese engineers study the materials and imitate the relevant concepts and designs.

Something similar occurred in the course of China’s development of a combat helicopter. In 1996 China and South Africa signed a memorandum to jointly develop a combat helicopter, when China was in the process of building its ZW-10 helicopter.

After being given a focused inspection of the Rooivalk combat helicopter’s subsystems, China wanted to purchase one helicopter from Denel, but the South African company considered the purchase of a single aircraft the equivalent of giving away its technologies. As a result, Denel decided not to sell China the helicopter and the cooperation came to an end.

Another item that appears to have been copied from South Africa is the optical-electronic pod on China’s ZW-9 combat helicopter, which bears a strong resemblance to the Leo-II serial O/E pods produced by the Zeiss Company.

Technical experts from the Zeiss Company told the author that about seven to eight years ago Zeiss exported two sets of an earlier variant of the Leo-II O/E pods to China, intended for use on helicopters. According to the source, the Chinese side explained that they needed a large number of this type of O/E pods for civilian helicopters, and therefore would like to purchase two sets initially for testing purposes. The source said the Chinese took no further action after receiving the test pods.

Currently, both the ZW-10 and the night version, the ZW-9, are equipped with O/E detectors very similar to those on the Leo-II.

China’s interest is not only in the O/E pod technologies used for helicopters. Chinese manufacturers have also engaged in active discussions with South Africa in hopes of acquiring TV video cameras and second-generation thermal imaging cameras used in Denel’s Seeker II unmanned air vehicle surveillance system.

The top military technology that China aspires to acquire from South Africa is without doubt the unmanned air vehicle. China’s New Era Group Corporation had several rounds of negotiations with Denel on the possibility of producing in China two types of Denel UAVs, which were on display at the 2006 Zhuhai Air Show, called the Golden Eagle and the Seeker II.

China hopes to obtain the technologies to assemble these two UAVs domestically. However, according to a source from the Denel Group, negotiations on the UAV deals have come to a halt and the company has decided that unless substantial progress is made on these negotiations, the company no longer wants to spend time dealing with the Chinese.

Denel had a similar experience in trying to negotiate a deal with Chinese company Norinco for its Mokopa anti-tank missiles. The Chinese company expressed an interest in importing Denel’s technologies, but once again the negotiations ended with no result.

Since 2007, Norinco has attempted to contact the Denel Group again, saying that it wants to import the company’s G5 155-mm howitzer ammunition handling system. But Denel is not eager to enter into an agreement with China on this project; Chinese-made 155-mm howitzers have already appeared in quite a number of countries in Northern Africa, including Algeria, Sudan and Egypt.

The source from Denel did disclose that the company has successfully completed a deal with China for its 35-mm multirole machine gun. This technology in fact was exported to China 10 years ago. China seems to have upgraded this 35-mm gun to an air-defense machine gun.

China’s New Era Group Corporation has also been negotiating with Denel for the transfer of African Eagle UAV technologies. The Chinese introductory brochure of the cooperation program claims that the African Eagle UAV is capable of taking a payload of 500 kilograms, which could be six Mokopa anti-tank missiles or two Umbani MK 81 precision-guided bombs. The theoretical combat radius of the African Eagle is 750 kilometers.

China also hopes to obtain the South African Angel high-altitude and high-speed UAV attacker system. This attacker UAV is capable of carrying precision-guided weapons and attacking targets 1,400 kilometers away. The UAV is also capable of carrying A-Darter AAMs to launch unmanned aerial attacks.

The Angel attacker and reconnaissance UAV is equipped with aperture radar and is capable of conducting tactical reconnaissance missions. It can also be fitted with Mokopa active laser-guided anti-tank missiles to attack armored combat groups.

Nonetheless, the source from Denel disclosed that no substantial progress has been made on this project, indicating it may end up as one more failed deal. It remains to be seen whether China’s latest explorations with the company will yield technological information it can convert to its own purposes, however.

Sorry for Very Long Post

So the again same thing first russia was compaling that china is copied its equipment now S. Arfrica , So what china is trying to show the world . That they are capable to copy every thing ??
Bang-Bang is offline  
Old January 10th, 2009   #2
Junior Member
Private First Class
No Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 51
What's the source of the article you've quoted?
shrubage is offline  
Old January 10th, 2009   #3
Junior Member
Private First Class
No Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 78
"Looks like" not very convincing argument but not question some copying has happened.

Generally, people forgot China is still a developing country! That point is developing nations have to copy to catch up. Why reinvent the wheel.

Previously Japan had the three I's policy when they were developing after Meji Restoration. (Now look at them) Imitate, Improve and finally Innovate.

China in the defense sector has been able to do the first two but the last one not yet, due to they are behind rest of Europe and American defence industries.

People are so judgemental about copying, but only a very small minority of humanity (through history) have devised something new, the rest copy's.

Finally China has built the most formidable army in Asia, whilst being militarily sanctioned by America and Europe. I exclude Russia because they have withdrawn most of their forces from Asian part of their country since the end of Cold War.
Type59 is offline  
Old January 10th, 2009   #4
New Member
No Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 25
I would think DENEL would have considered their business/commercial position first before letting China in on their technical know-how! Yes, China went asking to work with DENEL, and they refused. China worked on their own/or maybe with somebody else, DENEL is bitter. ... If the A-Darter, IRIS-T and PL-10 are supposed to be in the same class and be rivals, how different can they be considering they are all governed by the same laws of physics?

Last edited by Tempest; January 10th, 2009 at 04:38 PM.
Tempest is offline  
Old January 11th, 2009   #5
Super Moderator
Lieutenant General
SABRE's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,686
Thread closed (after consultation with other mods) for the following reasons:

1. No citation of source

2. Starter's comments are too limited for any mature discussion.

3. Thread has potential of going into flames.
"It is better to accept an end with a horror then face horror with no end." - Karl Von Clausewitz
SABRE is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:05 PM.