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This is a discussion on Russian Army/Ground Forces Discussion and Updates within the Army & Security Forces forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by Strannik I suspect it is logical result of the predicate with two parameters. First, Syria effect. T90A ...


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Old September 5th, 2017   #496
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I suspect it is logical result of the predicate with two parameters.

First, Syria effect. T90A showed itself surprisingly well. In spite of numerous hits no losses due to armour penetration were recorded, in fact it would be no losses at all, if not for the single case when tank was abandoned by cru and captured by enemy.

Second, T-14 is work in progress. How far did the work progressed? Who knows.
T-90A showed itself well but there was nothing surprising about that. It was a good tank to begin with. It's not clear why they're buying a small batch of new T-90M when T-14 purchases are only 2 years away. Even if they buy bigger batches the next 2 years, we're still looking at what, a couple hundred T-90Ms? In a fleet of thousands of tanks? After taking a 6 year hiatus from buying the T-90A, in the name of "Armata coming any minute now"? Upgrading the existing fleet makes sense. Especially those baseline T-90s from the early 1990's sitting at Central Storage. You'd be returning those tanks to service, and using them as a launching point for the upgrade program without leaving any active units without their tanks. Buying new ones without an upgrade program for the existing fleet only makes sense if T-14 buys are getting pushed back again, past 2020 this time. And at the recent forum they restated that they have a contract for T-14 deliveries, 100 tanks to be completed "by 2020". I.e. in 2019. That's deliveries in less then 2 years (remember we're in Sep. of 2017 now). And UVZ has stated that they've completed re-tooling for T-14 production. In fact they've been dropping hints that they're ready, and the MoD is the one delaying.
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Old September 5th, 2017   #497
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T-90A showed itself well but there was nothing surprising about that. It was a good tank to begin with...
I agree, But, you could not possibly know for sure, until it is battle-tested on real battlefield against modern western supplied antitank gear. Who, but specialists with intimate knowledge about the topic can be sure otherwise.
Plus, western reviews, typically, would say :

"It just modernisation of hopelessly out-dated T72 family, which is so bad, it cannot possibly come even close to modern wester tanks."

And look how wrong they all were .

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.. Buying new ones without an upgrade program for the existing fleet only makes sense if T-14 buys are getting pushed back again, past 2020 ..
That is unless one have a plan to, also, sell lots of T90M - variation of tested and tried T90A , incorporating solutions for problems highlighted by Syrian deployment.
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Old September 5th, 2017   #498
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Another piece of news, not so good, out of Army 2017. It appears that the T-80 contract is not just for overhauls but also for a "deep modernization" including the installation of the Sosna-U. I suspect we're looking at a T-72B3-like upgrade for the T-80 fleet, which suggests that the type will remain in service for quite some time. On the one hand the type certainly needs upgrading, on the other hand one would have thought that they'd be first to go in the name of reducing the tank types. I suspect this, and the T-90M buys are indications that the T-14 will either be purchased at a slower pace then initially planned or is further from serial production.

https://andrei-bt.livejournal.com/598022.html
Омский «летающий» танк Т-80 готовят для службы в Арктике
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Old September 6th, 2017   #499
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It really looks like the new AFVs (not only T-14) are further away from real serial production as expected. Probsbly due to a mix of them still needing development time and the army realizing that they cost a real fortune compared to purchasing modern versions of the current designs as well as upgrading the existing fleet.

As you said Feanor I still don't get why the early production T-90s aren'z higher on the upgrade list. Maybe they are seriously defective due to them being build in the turbulent '90s with a rather questionable quality control?
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Old September 6th, 2017   #500
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It really looks like the new AFVs (not only T-14) are further away from real serial production as expected. Probsbly due to a mix of them still needing development time and the army realizing that they cost a real fortune compared to purchasing modern versions of the current designs as well as upgrading the existing fleet.
It's a curious situation. It appears that the Coalition-SV howitzer is the furthest along, with the T-14/15/16 family close behind. The light armor, meanwhile, is further behind. Even so, I'm not sure how big the buys can be in principle. A couple of hundred vehicles a year, tops, for the MBT. I think we can expect serial production of the SP Arty, MBT, H-IFV, and ARV, around 2019, with the medium wheels and tracks coming 2021-2022. Assuming nothing earth-shattering comes before then.

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As you said Feanor I still don't get why the early production T-90s aren'z higher on the upgrade list. Maybe they are seriously defective due to them being build in the turbulent '90s with a rather questionable quality control?
Not defective enough to prevent them from being donated to the Syrians to represent the T-90 in combat. And they've represented well. It's even stranger when you consider that they initially announced that they were going to do exactly that.
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Old September 9th, 2017   #501
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The T-80BVM is revealed. It's as I speculated, they simply applied the T-72B3M package to the T-80BV. The results are predictable, but ultimately a solid improvement, with better protection, better comms, better optics, and a better FCS. Incidentally the T-90M is currently undergoing state trials and the T-80BVM is preparing for state trials.

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/2838608.html

EDIT: A closer look at the T-80BVM and T-90M. Note the T-90M is the domestic variant of the T-90MS/SM.

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/2838794.html
https://andrei-bt.livejournal.com/601052.html
https://bmpd.livejournal.com/2838608.html
https://andrei-bt.livejournal.com/600812.html

Last edited by Feanor; September 9th, 2017 at 08:25 PM.
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Old October 2nd, 2017   #502
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Updates.

A contract has been signed for upgrades to BMP-2 and BMD-2s installing the Berezhok and Bereg modules, with new optics, FCS, panoramic sights, and Kornet ATGM modules on the sides of the turret.

Gur Khan attacks!: *остех и Минобороны подписали контракт на модернизацию 540 БМП-2 и БМД-2

Some T-90BVs have unexpectedly shown up in the 4th Tank Div, which was previously entirely equipped with T-80Us. It's possible they will be the first recipient of the T-80BVM.

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/2855984.html

A new 57mm combat module from Burevestnik, with a bigger combat load. They're still allergic to adding ATGMs to their modules, which is odd given the pattern of Kornet modules on the sides of practically all other Russian combat modules being rolled out (Berezhok, Bereg, Bumerang-BM, Epoha). The multi-platform approach is interesting as well, given the prospective 57mm AAA being developed under OKR Derivatsiya.

https://yuripasholok.livejournal.com/9403491.html

West-2017 exercises are the debut for the T-72B3 mod. 2017, T-80BVM, T-90M, and even the BMPT variant that the MoD is allegedly buying, with the ridiculous 5-man crew but the updated armor on the ATGM modules.

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/2849936.html
https://samoletchik.livejournal.com/91737.html

Some materials on the new Sosna SHORAD for the PVO-SV.

Gur Khan attacks!: З*К "Сосна" (видео)
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Old 1 Week Ago   #503
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Some updates.

The truck-mounted version of the Coalition-SV howitzer has been rolled out. It looks much like expected, featuring a lightly armored Kamaz truck for a chassis. It's unclear whether this is the final chassis as it's possible that an up-armored MRAP-style Kamaz variant will end up used for the final variant.

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/2971690.html

A new arty bde has been formed in Kolomna. It may or may not inherit the brand new Kornet BMP-3 based ATGM carriers. Up until now the arty bde's have taken Khrizantema ATGM carriers, and it was speculated that the new Kornet is meant for motor-rifle anti-tank btlns.

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/2982159.html

The newly formed 30th Motor-Rifles is apparently experimenting with an infantry btln mounted on unarmored UAZ-Patrior pickup trucks. The intent seems to be to integrate the raiding tactics seen in Syria into a mech and armored formation. Personally I think this would have been more appropriate for a recon btln, especially since every Motor-Rifle Bde already has one.

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/2981839.html

A new independent 171-st Para-Assault btln has been formed in Crimea. It will be the nucleus of a new, 3rd, regiment for the 7th VDV Division.

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/2985671.html

The Kalinigrad region is finally getting the Iskander-M, being one of the last units in the Russian armed forces to get the missile.

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/2983132.html

Apparently 3 brigades of SAMs for the Land Forces Air Defense have been re-armed with the new Buk-M3 SAM. One in the Far East, one in South MD, and one in West MD near Kursk (right next to Ukraine).

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/2985151.html
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