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This is a discussion on Malaysian Army/Land forces discussions within the Army & Security Forces forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by Zzims Arent the Pt's suppose to function in forested area? I doubt any other MBT with this ...


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Old February 19th, 2007   #46
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Arent the Pt's suppose to function in forested area? I doubt any other MBT with this weight class has better armour or much else Advance armour.
Even when comparing T-90 or T-80 to it.

T-90 weight = 46,500 kg
T-80 weight = 45,500 kg
Throw in the Ukrainian T-84 which is, under much debate the best Eastern tank has a weight of 46,000kg

All these tanks will perform just as good as the PT-91M.
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Old February 20th, 2007   #47
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Even when comparing T-90 or T-80 to it.

T-90 weight = 46,500 kg
T-80 weight = 45,500 kg
Throw in the Ukrainian T-84 which is, under much debate the best Eastern tank has a weight of 46,000kg

All these tanks will perform just as good as the PT-91M.
Was there any particular reason T-84 wasnt chosen? I'm rather fond of it xD
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Old February 20th, 2007   #48
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Price reasons.

As long as I know both T-90S and T-84 both performed better and even the CV90120 was in the race but finally Poland made the best offer.
And T-90 and T-84 both borke down during mobility tests with the CV90120 not participating due to technical problems.

As for protection.

The named T-90, T-80 and T-84 give you a better protection with also not much weight for a MBT.

And the key is ground pressure. The Leopard II A4 has a 9kg advantage over the PT-91 with 85kg/cm² against 94kg/cm². So even if upgraded the Leo has not more problems at soft terrain and when remaining in the A4 version it is even better suited for soft ground.

Also the power to weight ratio of the Leo is better.
I don't think that the Leo has more problems in the jungle than the PT-91.
Only some bridges can be a problem due to more overall weight.

Firepower

When I look at how german DM33 entered the turret of T-72M1 and left it at the back I would also not be very optimistic about the protection of the PT-91M against the neighbouring Leopard IIA4s.
The basic turret armor of the T-72M1 and PT-91M is the same. Even ERAWA-2 is not that effective to give it enough protection.

On the other side I would also not be that optimistic about Singapore's Leos to be able to withstand a hit of the PT-91M.

If they buy the right ammo the new 2A46MS should be able to go against the Leo's armor or at least it would be a close run.

If Singapore decides to upgrade the Leos Malaysia has a problem.
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Old February 20th, 2007   #49
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You mean T-90 and not Type 90 don't you?

Type 90 would be the Japanese one which, oh wonder , looks very similar to a Leopard II A4.
Well Chinese also use type designation so I checked on Sinodefence and it seams that I got designation right:

http://www.sinodefence.com/army/tank/type90.asp
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Old February 20th, 2007   #50
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It is difficult to get infos about Chinese tanks. The question is if the Type 80 which is the predecessor of the Type 90 really has a T-72 chassis.
I thought that it has some similarities but it is not really a T-72 chassis. During the time it has bee developed the Sovjets did not export tech to China and so they had to develop one of their own. The similarities come from their already existing knowledge of russian designs.

The russian T-90 on the other hand definitely has the T-72 as base.
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Old February 20th, 2007   #51
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It is difficult to get infos about Chinese tanks. The question is if the Type 80 which is the predecessor of the Type 90 really has a T-72 chassis.
I thought that it has some similarities but it is not really a T-72 chassis. During the time it has bee developed the Sovjets did not export tech to China and so they had to develop one of their own. The similarities come from their already existing knowledge of russian designs.

The russian T-90 on the other hand definitely has the T-72 as base.
AFAIK type80/88 is further development of type79(similar to t-62) with new wheel arrangement(five large road wheels were replaced with six smaller road wheels with three track rollers) and it doesn't have T-72 chassis...
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Old February 20th, 2007   #52
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Ah ok, thanks.
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Old February 20th, 2007   #53
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Originally Posted by Waylander View Post
It is difficult to get infos about Chinese tanks. The question is if the Type 80 which is the predecessor of the Type 90 really has a T-72 chassis.
I thought that it has some similarities but it is not really a T-72 chassis. During the time it has bee developed the Sovjets did not export tech to China and so they had to develop one of their own. The similarities come from their already existing knowledge of russian designs.

The russian T-90 on the other hand definitely has the T-72 as base.
The Type 90 does have a T-72 chassis with a engine pac layout of a T-80 series, it looks like they tried to get the best of both worlds which is funny because the engine on the T-80 has always been a weak point as far as reliability issues, until Ukraine came along and offered a pretty good diesel engine pac for the T-84, which is what the Al-Khalid has.
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Old February 20th, 2007   #54
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Price reasons.

As long as I know both T-90S and T-84 both performed better and even the CV90120 was in the race but finally Poland made the best offer.
And T-90 and T-84 both borke down during mobility tests with the CV90120 not participating due to technical problems.

As for protection.

The named T-90, T-80 and T-84 give you a better protection with also not much weight for a MBT.

And the key is ground pressure. The Leopard II A4 has a 9kg advantage over the PT-91 with 85kg/cm² against 94kg/cm². So even if upgraded the Leo has not more problems at soft terrain and when remaining in the A4 version it is even better suited for soft ground.

Also the power to weight ratio of the Leo is better.
I don't think that the Leo has more problems in the jungle than the PT-91.
Only some bridges can be a problem due to more overall weight.

Firepower

When I look at how german DM33 entered the turret of T-72M1 and left it at the back I would also not be very optimistic about the protection of the PT-91M against the neighbouring Leopard IIA4s.
The basic turret armor of the T-72M1 and PT-91M is the same. Even ERAWA-2 is not that effective to give it enough protection.

On the other side I would also not be that optimistic about Singapore's Leos to be able to withstand a hit of the PT-91M.

If they buy the right ammo the new 2A46MS should be able to go against the Leo's armor or at least it would be a close run.

If Singapore decides to upgrade the Leos Malaysia has a problem.
Well put - and yes Singapore has better options for upgrade packages in armor protection levels, PT-91M is pretty much at it`s limits due to it`s size where the LEO`s have plenty of room.
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Old February 20th, 2007   #55
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Maybe Singapore should have gone the same way like Denmark did.

They bought surplus Leopard IIA4 and upgraded them directly to their A5DK version.

Maybe Singapore will do the same in the future.

As you said the PT-91M reached the limit of its upgrades while Singapore could pick what it wants out of the Leopard IIA6EX and PSO packages which are the ones of which possible customers can chose their favorite upgrades.


BTW, is training support in Poland included in the buy of the PT-91?
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Old February 20th, 2007   #56
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Originally Posted by Waylander View Post
Maybe Singapore should have gone the same way like Denmark did.

They bought surplus Leopard IIA4 and upgraded them directly to their A5DK version.

Maybe Singapore will do the same in the future.

As you said the PT-91M reached the limit of its upgrades while Singapore could pick what it wants out of the Leopard IIA6EX and PSO packages which are the ones of which possible customers can chose their favorite upgrades.


BTW, is training support in Poland included in the buy of the PT-91?
I would think that they would make training part of the package deal along with support, if the Poles don`t, you know the Ukrainians will be more than happy to lend a helping hand.
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Old February 20th, 2007   #57
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Originally Posted by Zzims View Post
Malaysian Defense Planners would buy more Twardy's? Rather see an Al-Khalid moving in a Parade. But a Twardy's is just as nice.One question seeing T-84 and Pt-91 is made from almost the same region, wouldnt it be possible for a T-84 tropical version/ Malaysian version?
Here is a few pictures of Polands iron chariot.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg pt91pologne037bk.jpg (40.9 KB, 9 views)
File Type: jpg pt91pologne061as.jpg (49.3 KB, 9 views)
File Type: jpg pt91pologne073vo.jpg (22.6 KB, 11 views)
File Type: jpg pt911bpanmf1105c10do.jpg (174.6 KB, 16 views)
File Type: jpg pt91100ga.jpg (33.8 KB, 10 views)
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Old February 21st, 2007   #58
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Originally Posted by Waylander View Post
Maybe Singapore should have gone the same way like Denmark did.

They bought surplus Leopard IIA4 and upgraded them directly to their A5DK version.

Maybe Singapore will do the same in the future.

As you said the PT-91M reached the limit of its upgrades while Singapore could pick what it wants out of the Leopard IIA6EX and PSO packages which are the ones of which possible customers can chose their favorite upgrades.


BTW, is training support in Poland included in the buy of the PT-91?
Well according to PAP, the first batch of three, not sure if it includes the first prototype, will stay at Poland some time for training purposes.
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Old February 21st, 2007   #59
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Ok, thanks.
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Old February 21st, 2007   #60
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it doesnt matter what they have , the malays dont have the guts to fight , unless they re finding the chinese in singapor or some other neighboring country
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