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This is a discussion on Made in Singapore Equipment within the Army & Security Forces forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by aaaditya ...i believe that the lighter weight advantage of the m-777 is negated by the pegasus's higher ...


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Old January 5th, 2010   #61
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Originally Posted by aaaditya
...i believe that the lighter weight advantage of the m-777 is negated by the pegasus's higher degree of automation and superior mobility.
I have to admit that the M777 is impressive. It is possible that India will take the FMS route and ST Kinetics may lose this sale. See this impressive air drop video from ArtyEngineer:


As I said before:

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...I usually try to be cautious in praise on Singapore made equipment, as I strive not to be blindly nationalistic over made in Singapore equipment (and I'm happy to discuss their limitations too).
Congrats to BAE for the BvS10 MkII win.

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Originally Posted by riksavage View Post
The French government has finally selected the latest version of the BAE Systems BvS10 MkII Viking all-terrain tracked vehicle over the Singaporean variant. Have to admit it does make sense, the UK and Dutch Marines use the same vehicle plus it was specifically designed to fit inside the current batch of landing craft / LSD's. I understand the Warthog is bigger reducing the number, which can be stored inside the current French amphib assets.

The UK plans to transfer it's batch of larger Warthogs to the army orbat and return the BvS10's (including recently ordered battlefield replacements) back to the RM ARG for the same reason as stated above.
@riksavage, is their concern is reducing the number of waves during staging? Thanks in advance for a reply on this question.

Last edited by OPSSG; January 27th, 2010 at 12:56 PM.
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Old January 5th, 2010   #62
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I asked one of my associates, a serving RM officer about the Viking vs Warthog and he made the Russian Doll analogy, one (Viking) designed to fit tightly in the other (MK10), which in turn fits tightly in the Bay / Albion Class, hence the desire to keep the Viking II specifications as close to that of the MKI.

Warthog is very popular and apparently a dream to use, however it is not ideal for RM use across all roles due to its increased size, hence it being transferred to the army and driven by the Royal Tank Corp.
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Old January 5th, 2010   #63
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I asked one of my associates, a serving RM officer about the Viking vs Warthog and he made the Russian Doll analogy, one (Viking) designed to fit tightly in the other (MK10), which in turn fits tightly in the Bay / Albion Class, hence the desire to keep the Viking II specifications as close to that of the MKI.

Warthog is very popular and apparently a dream to use, however it is not ideal for RM use across all roles due to its increased size, hence it being transferred to the army and driven by the Royal Tank Corp.
Thanks, as I suspected things to be that way. At least the Warthog can be put to excellent use in the army. Is there no light formation which can put it to use, or are they driven by the Tank Corp mostly due to their skill set or particular turf?

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Old February 4th, 2010   #64
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Singapore's ST Kinetics, has won a contract worth US$20.9m (about S$29.4m) from the Brazilian Navy. More details below:

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ST Engineering's Land Systems Arm Secures Naval Gun Contract From Brazilian Navy

Singapore, 4 February 2010 - ST Engineering today announced that its land systems arm, ST Kinetics, has won a contract worth US$20.9m (about S$29.4m) from the Brazilian Navy for the supply of 5 units of 40mm L70 naval gun and an associated Integrated Logistics Support (ILS) package. The contract was signed between the Brazilian Navy and Allied Ordnance of Singapore (Pte) Ltd (AOS), a wholly owned subsidiary of ST Kinetics. Delivery will begin in the last quarter of 2011 and is expected to be completed by end 2013.

This contract is the second that AOS has received from the Brazilian Navy. Two units of 40mm L70 naval gun with ILS package were ordered in 2007. Delivery of the first gun is currently in progress and will be installed on a Brazilian Navy patrol vessel.

Both contracts were won amidst strong competition from established global players. ST Kinetics' 40mm L70 NADM330 naval gun features a full electric drive aiming system with brushless motors that enable quick and accurate target tracking; battery powered operation that allows immediate and ever-ready activation; and 101 ready-to-fire rounds in a dual compartment magazine that provides immediate selection between two types of ammunition and ample ammunition for engagements without reloading. These class leading features of the gun give it the capability to instantly engage aerial and surface targets simultaneously.

"The Brazilian Navy's second order of ST Kinetics' 40mm L70 naval guns amidst keen competition reflects their confidence in the quality and performance of our solution. We are delighted with this latest order and will ensure that we exceed all expectations of the esteemed Brazilian Navy." ~ SEW Chee Jhuen, President, ST Kinetics
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Old February 18th, 2010   #65
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Exclamation

Army postpones howitzer trial after gun accident
any info on this accident?
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[The Hindu] The Indian Army has postponed the winter trials for procuring 155 mm towed howitzers after St. Kinetics expressed inability to bring its gun for field testing due to an accident in Singapore. “The winter trials will now be held in October as one of the two contenders, St. Kinetics, said its gun was damaged in an accident in Singapore, and would be able to arrive in India only after March,” Army officials said here.

St. Kinetics senior executive Brig Gen Patrick Choy said the accident occurred when the gun was being transported to India. “We have to cut some parts on the gun which were damaged in the accident. We will definitely have the guns in India by April and it will take part in the summer trials,” he said. The Indian Army is planning to procure 400 towed howitzers, and BAE Systems and the Singapore-based ST Kinetics are the two contenders offering their platforms.

The field trials have already been delayed as they were put on hold after St. Kinetics’ name surfaced in a CBI case for allegedly bribing Ordinance Factory Board officials. After the government decided to allow tainted firms to participate in defence contracts till the time the probe was on, the Army decided to hold the winter trials in Leh in February and March.

In view of the mishap involving the St. Kinetics gun, the trials are now expected to be held in October-November. Commenting on the other tenders where St. Kinetics is participating, Choy said the company’s SAR-21 assault rifles were undergoing trials for meeting the requirements of the Home Ministry tender for procuring around 40,000 guns.
I guess this also means ST Kinetics is still in the fray for the deal. Its good to have competitor since that means either way the prices can be beaten down more effectively.
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Old February 19th, 2010   #66
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Army postpones howitzer trial after gun accident
any info on this accident?

I guess this also means ST Kinetics is still in the fray for the deal. Its good to have competitor since that means either way the prices can be beaten down more effectively.
i believe this is the second time that the singapore gun has met with an accident during trials ,the earlier one was a barrel burst during a test fire by the new zealand armed forces resulting in a couple of casualties,this somehow questions the reliability of this gun ,especially in the intense combat and climatic conditions that occur in india.
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Old February 19th, 2010   #67
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i believe this is the second time that the singapore gun has met with an accident during trials ,the earlier one was a barrel burst during a test fire by the new zealand armed forces resulting in a couple of casualties,this somehow questions the reliability of this gun ,especially in the intense combat and climatic conditions that occur in india.
You've got your facts wrong.

The 9 March 1997 incident in NZ was caused by a faulty artillery fuze. The Committee of Inquiry concluded that the most probable cause of this incident was a faulty artillery fuze that was fitted to the 155 mm projectile which had been loaded into the gun howitzer that resulted in the premature detonation, so the problem is not with the gun.

This faulty fuse was supposed to be 'supplied' by Island Ordnance Systems (IOS) in the United States, when in fact, IOS had in turn obtained the flawed fuzes from Xian Dong Fang Machinery Factory in the province of Shaanxi, PRC. Prior to delivery to Singapore, IOS had hastily issued a Certificate of Compliance and a Certificate of Conformance to confirm that the required military specifications had been met, even though it did not conduct those required tests. In the sample test of the fuzes carried out by later in Singapore, no defective fuzes were found. Hence, based on these Certificates issued by IOS and sample test by Chartered Ammunition Industries (CAI), Singapore's MINDEF accepted the delivery of these fuzes.

A subsequent X-ray check on the same batch of fuzes from where the faulty fuze was taken from and found that approximately 1.3% of these fuzes were faulty (kindly note that the subsequent investigation was able to identify a 1.3% defect rate - which meant a 100% check on all fuzes supplied by IOS).

Singapore's MINDEF eventually went on to pursue the appropriate legal options that are available against the parties involved in the supply of the defective fuzes, namely - CAI and IOS. In other words, it can be inferred that the US company, IOS may have committed fraud and that this fraud led to the 9 March 1997 incident that killed 3SG Ronnie Tan Han Chong and LCP Low Yin Tit.

This incident is related to ammo supply chain and possibly fraud by the US supplier of fuses but NOT the performance or reliability of the FH-2000.

So, we've learnt our lesson and that we need to verify what our US suppliers tell us.

Last edited by OPSSG; February 19th, 2010 at 01:27 AM.
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Old February 19th, 2010   #68
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Originally Posted by shag View Post
Army postpones howitzer trial after gun accident
any info on this accident?

I guess this also means ST Kinetics is still in the fray for the deal. Its good to have competitor since that means either way the prices can be beaten down more effectively.
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Originally Posted by aaaditya View Post
i believe this is the second time that the singapore gun has met with an accident during trials ,the earlier one was a barrel burst during a test fire by the new zealand armed forces resulting in a couple of casualties,this somehow questions the reliability of this gun ,especially in the intense combat and climatic conditions that occur in india.
I think this was a shipment related accident that damaged the iFH-2000 as it was being shipped to India - the damage to the iFH-2000 had nothing to do actual trials (since the trails are not yet conducted). Below is a very old video on the FH-2000.


@aaaditya, don't jump to conclusions without reading the details. Even American sources acknowledge that the Singapore designed and built FH2000 is the first 52 calibre field howitzer 'in service and in series production'. See also my earlier post #27 for more details on extended range rounds and how that affects range. BTW, the FH-2000 is in service in both Singapore and Indonesia.

Last edited by OPSSG; February 19th, 2010 at 02:39 AM.
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Old February 19th, 2010   #69
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Can someone please paste the content of the video in brief?

I remember you or someone else had posted the incident about the fuses somewhere else earlier.
An incident like this could have been catastrophic for ST Kinetics prospects if it had happened in India. Finding parts( even if its as small as Fuses for shells) in defence equipment that originate in PRC could have created a big rukus here creating strategic concerns, stories of foul play etc. and probably destroyed any hopes of ST Kinetics selling to India.
Its important to understand the politics of the nation you are trying to sell arms to.
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Old February 19th, 2010   #70
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Can someone please paste the content of the video in brief?

I remember you or someone else had posted the incident about the fuses somewhere else earlier.
An incident like this could have been catastrophic for ST Kinetics prospects if it had happened in India. Finding parts( even if its as small as Fuses for shells) in defence equipment that originate in PRC could have created a big rukus here creating strategic concerns, stories of foul play etc. and probably destroyed any hopes of ST Kinetics selling to India.
Its important to understand the politics of the nation you are trying to sell arms to.
Read the post in full before making unfounded comments - aaaditya made accusations without reading and now you are doing the same. IMO, you are forming an opinion without accurate information

For the avoidance of doubt, Singapore companies are not competing to supply 155mm ammo or fuzes to India, so don't conflate the issues. The Indian army has Indian suppliers and it's quite well documented by Indian media.

For the use of the SAF, Singapore bought fuzes from an American company, IOS and they sub-contracted onwards (to a Chinese company to obtain the necessary component). These fuzes have NOTHING to do with the FH-2000 evaluation and Singapore's MINDEF also no longer even buys fuses from IOS because this American company's processes are defective.

I suspect reading comprehension may be a challenge for for people with short attention spans. What's your problem with reading or watching the video in full?

BTW, Indian sources say that India does buy Chinese components for defence related stuff. So I really don't know what you are babbling about.

Last edited by OPSSG; February 19th, 2010 at 03:29 AM.
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Old February 19th, 2010   #71
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Read the post in full before making unfounded comments - aaaditya made accusations without reading and now you are doing the same.

For the avoidance of doubt, Singapore companies are not competing to supply 155mm ammo or fuzes to India, so don't conflate the issues. The Indian army has Indian suppliers and it's quite well documented by Indian media.

Singapore bought fuzes from a American company, IOS and they sub-contracted onwards (to a Chinese company to obtain the necessary component). These fuzes have NOTHING to do with the FH-2000 evaluation and Singapore's MINDEF also no longer even buys fuses from IOS because this American company's processes are defective.

I suspect reading comprehension may be a challenge for for people with short attention spans. What's your problem with reading or watching the video in full?
That snide comment was uncalled for.
I am aware that ST Kinetics is not selling the ammo. But point here is ST kinetics was not aware of the supplier of the fuses it was using, and that can cause issues if a similar incident reoccurs with equipment supplied to India.
I know what aditya said, he is wrong. The accident this time had nothing to do with the gun. It was a accident during trasportation. Thats not what I was talking about.

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BTW, Indian sources say that India does buy Chinese components for defence related stuff.
I am quiet sure thats not the case. Can you cite this with a reliable source?
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Old February 19th, 2010   #72
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Note the Have a sense of humour... Got to have a sense of humour to do biz in India.... where lots of surprises await.

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I am aware that ST Kinetics is not selling 155mm ammo to India.
This statement is factually wrong unless you change the text as suggested. A subsidiary of ST Kinetics (of which there are many), Advanced Material Engineering does sell ammo including 40mm ammo to UK's MoD. You could also say that India is buying 155mm ammo and fuses from Indian entities though it is possible that not all components there in are made by indigenous sources.

BTW, you've just proved my point that you are not making sense to me and given me a reason for my .

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But point here is ST kinetics was not aware of the supplier of the fuses it was using, and that can cause issues if a similar incident reoccurs with equipment supplied to India.
I asked you not to conflate the issue because they are unrelated and here you are doing it again. And your claim in bold is technically not true (the issue is really they become aware at a certain stage, which resulted in clarifications that have legal liability implications for the American supplier), so let's not go down this road.

The issue is more complex than what you have posted and again you have formed an opinion without the necessary information - while insisting that your way of thinking makes sense. It does not. See gf0012-aust's response at post #3280 in another thread to get a better idea in a parallel event.

You are dealing with sovereign issues (conceptually the Singapore Government can buy whatever our country wants from whomever our country wants to do biz with). The information in my prior post was provided to prove that the 9 March 1997 incident was not related to the quality or performance of the FH-2000. The ammo supply chain partially described was the SAF's supply chain then and it is not the ST Kinetics' supply chain. They are different.

If you persist on the same track, I'll have to politely say that the SAF's supply chain and the ammo used by SAF is not an Indian MoD concern.

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I am quiet sure thats not the case. Can you cite this with a reliable source?
Is there such a thing as a reliable media source on Indian defence matters? Occasionally, I find that even publications like Janes may have some minor factual errors that creep in and and you may want to look for more links to satisfy yourself. I'm not a fan of trying to tell Indians about India. Take the trouble seek info and read before expressing an opinion. Despite the fact the you are again giving an opinion without checking, here's a link with some background info below that can help you start your search for Indian sources:
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...In 2009, the Indian National Security Council Secretariat (NSCS) ordered the Scientific Analysis Group (SAG), an arm of the Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO) engaged in analysis of communication systems, to conduct an inquiry into the Chinese made encryption devices supplied by Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) to the Indian Air Force and the National Technical Research Organization (NTRO) (Indian Express, November 1, 2009)...

Last edited by OPSSG; March 11th, 2010 at 01:20 PM. Reason: included links and amended typos
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Old March 20th, 2010
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Old April 19th, 2010   #73
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ST Kinetics' iFH-2000 (155mm/52 calibre) towed howitzer has arrived in India for trails.

Punj Lloyd is the Indian partner of ST Kinetics for the towed howitzer being offered for sale with the Indian Army. Hence, Punj Lloyd will get a significant share of the manufacture if the iFH-2000 is selected by India. More details by Ajai Shukla here. He has some pixs of the howitzer in action too.

Last edited by OPSSG; April 19th, 2010 at 07:57 AM.
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Old April 19th, 2010   #74
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Got to have a sense of humour to do biz in India...
This statement is factually wrong unless you change the text as suggested.
I dont understand, did you mean all that in jest?
I was ofcourse talking about 155 mm ammo, and yes I was talking about India as the customer. Sorry about my stupid 'the ammo' which didn't describe the details.

I am not trying berate Singaporean equipment or any thing else Singaporean. I am simply mentioning the rucus certain issues can create in india, esp for a new vendor who is hoping to break into the market, ST kinetics has unfortunately faced one issue(through no fault of its own if I might add) already.

I am not a civilian and I come from a Army back ground, In fact Col Ajai Shukla who you quote so often is my dad's coursemate, my dad's also a veteran of the 71 war. But I am not so big on waging war(arguing) in forums and I have no intention to get unpleasant with you or anyone else. So if you are upset with me on anything I apologize again and we can bury the issue here.
cool?
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Old April 19th, 2010   #75
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If the Singapore brand means anything - it's zero tolerance for corruption. Therefore, it is strange that on the first deal that ST Kinetics tried to close in India, their good name was dragged through the dirt by many in the Indian press - who omitted the use of the key words - 'alleged corruption' in their reports and convicted the company based on hearsay before the Indian public. In fact, ST Kinetics' Patrick Choy has said:
“We have never been told we have been blacklisted. The CBI (Central Bureau of Investigation) has spoken to us but we have never been told what the charges against us are,”
and he added that:
“We are more than willing to open our books for inspection. We have not done any wrong. Our corporate governance is of a very high standard. In the last 40 years, there has not been a single instance of our having done wrong,
And it was clear that ST Kinetics was initially not treated fairly and also had to incur unnecessary costs because of lapses in communication. ST Kinetics seems to have finally got their ducks in a roll and have finally found an Indian partner they can work with to help them navigate their way round Indian deals. At a strategic level, this should profit both India and Singapore (as Singapore seeks to engage India).

From a self image standpoint - I feel that Singapore and our companies are amongst the least corrupt in Asia (BTW, the current President of Interpol is a Singaporean) and we are proud of our record on enforcement despite the fact that it affects the ability of Singapore companies to close deals in many third world countries (it's painful to know that sometimes you can't close a deal because you can't offer a bribe).

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I dont understand, did you mean all that in jest?
I was ofcourse talking about 155 mm ammo, and yes I was talking about India as the customer. Sorry about my stupid 'the ammo' which didn't describe the details.

I am not trying berate Singaporean equipment or any thing else Singaporean. I am simply mentioning the rucus certain issues can create in india, esp for a new vendor who is hoping to break into the market, ST kinetics has unfortunately faced one issue(through no fault of its own if I might add) already.

I am not a civilian and I come from a Army back ground, In fact Col Ajai Shukla who you quote so often is my dad's coursemate, my dad's also a veteran of the 71 war. But I am not so big on waging war(arguing) in forums and I have no intention to get unpleasant with you or anyone else. So if you are upset with me on anything I apologize again and we can bury the issue here.
cool?
No worries - it's Singaporean humour (see Singaporean comments applied to the iFH-2000 pix ) [h/t to Iowa_BB61]. Thanks for explaining your background - it will help me pitch my replies appropriately.

Beyond that I think we were talking at cross purposes earlier. I think it's a matter of trying understand each other. Keep in mind that 2 Singaporeans died and 12 were injured from the 9 March 1997 incident, so obviously I was disappointed with IOS. But more than that, we have learned and we have changed.

From my perspective, it's OK if India does not buy any products from ST Kinetics - may the 'best' product win the sale, as I'm not related to the company, nor do I have a commercial interest in it. But IMO, it's NOT OK for some in the Indian press to soil the good name/reputation of Singapore made weapons. BTW, ST is THE company that makes weapons for our army (there's no other choice for us).

Here's the latest videos of two ST Kinetics made products mentioned earlier in this thread:

Bronco
YouTube- Rough Rider - The Army's All Terrain Tracked Carrier - The Bronco
Trailblazer
YouTube- Up The Beaten Path - Trailblazer Counter-Mine Vehicle (Defence Watch Apr 10)

Last edited by OPSSG; April 21st, 2010 at 02:49 AM.
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