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This is a discussion on The Indonesian Army within the Army & Security Forces forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; TNI bought and operated a small number of the Ultimax100 LMG. I have seen TNI troopers using both the long ...


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Old January 14th, 2011   #76
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TNI bought and operated a small number of the Ultimax100 LMG. I have seen TNI troopers using both the long and short para barrels. And also the use of both the drum and 30rd box mag.

Anyone has any reports of how the TNI rate the weapon?
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Old January 15th, 2011   #77
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Sorry, but the Korps Marinir used the BM-14, we never had the BM-21 in service.
Sorry disagree, BM-14 is not truck mounted MRL system but Tow 140 mm MRL system. According to Russian sites TNI-AD once used BM-14, but not last long. I believe The Marines used early versions of BM-21 which still used old Ural-375 chasis. Whille the more numerous and newer versions of BM-21 already used Ural-4320 chasis.

Besides, BM-14 used 140 mm rockets, whille BM-21 used 122 mm rockets which in the end is the inventory that's still being used by the marines. I believe if we take a look to early versions of BM-21 photo's attached, it's the same versions that The Marines MRL used, before present RM-70.
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Old January 15th, 2011   #78
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TNI bought and operated a small number of the Ultimax100 LMG. I have seen TNI troopers using both the long and short para barrels. And also the use of both the drum and 30rd box mag.

Anyone has any reports of how the TNI rate the weapon?
Well. TNI-AD rather sillent on how they rate the guns in their inventories. However for machine guns, at present the current administrations insists on using Pindad products.

Pindad LMG called SM-3 is based on FN Minimi SAW 5.56 mm. Whille the heavier machine guns (.50/12.7 mm) is based on Singapore CIS .50, called SM-2. Pindad choses the products that they're going to developed (their own design or under licensed), always refer to what TNI preferences.
Also their 40 mm Automatics Grannat Launchers (AGL) seems based to ST 40 mm AGL, called SPG-3 on Pindad productions run.

Based on what Pindad produce, seems Minimi win over to Ultimax on TNI preferences in Light MG catagory, however TNI and Pindad take preferences on ST products in Heavy MG and AGL.
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Old January 15th, 2011   #79
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There was a photo in a Malaysian defence mag - Tempur - of a Pindad produced 105mm gun that looked very similiar to the Oto Melara Model 56 pack gun.
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Old January 15th, 2011   #80
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There was a photo in a Malaysian defence mag - Tempur - of a Pindad produced 105mm gun that looked very similiar to the Oto Melara Model 56 pack gun.
Yes, I think I already put somewhere in this thread and forum that Pindad already gain license agreement with Oto Melara for 105 mm gun. They supposed to replace old 76 mm field how. I don't know though how many of them already in active duty.
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Old January 16th, 2011   #81
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I don't know about Ken Conboy's claim since supposedly TNI still have ample inventory left of AK-47. However by the time Soeharto's firmly in power (mid 70's), TNI have switch to M-16 and 5.6 mm bullets. That's actually killed the AK-47 in TNI-AD. However the Marines I believe up until early 90's still operating some AK-47.

Off all TNI brach, the Marines is perheps the longgest operating Russian and East Block weapons. Afterall up untill the 90's they still operating Katushya (BM-21 before being change to present RM-70) and Strela (SA-7). Btw, Strela is the manpads before QW-3, and operated so far that I know only by the Marines.
Kormar, dont know when this pictures is taken.
It looks like a Sa Vz.58V.
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Old January 17th, 2011   #82
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Yes, I think I already put somewhere in this thread and forum that Pindad already gain license agreement with Oto Melara for 105 mm gun.
Yes you did, sorry, forgot about it. The Model 56 is light and compact but it hasn't got much range. I'm just surprised they didn't go for the Giat Light Gun which is already operated by the Korps Marinir.
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Old January 18th, 2011   #83
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Yes you did, sorry, forgot about it. The Model 56 is light and compact but it hasn't got much range. I'm just surprised they didn't go for the Giat Light Gun which is already operated by the Korps Marinir.
Well it could be for several reaons ;

1. The license cost from Oto Melara perhaps is more fit with Pindad budget compared to GIAT.
2. Once I read from Army source that they think Pindad guns (aka Oto Melara Pack Gun) is more suitable with TNI AD ability to transport them. It's light enough that any Landrover (which's still TNI AD standard 4x4) can tow them properly.
3. 10-12 km firing range that the gun offered still comfortable enough for tropical junggle warfare that TNI AD will face.
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Old January 19th, 2011   #84
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One advantage of the Model 56 is it can be broken down to 11 parts if needed, for transport. The only problem apart from its range - it uses the M1 shell - is that it's not very robust. Janes's reported that China many years ago bought 4 or 5 from Oto Melara and later came up with an almost exact Norinco made copy.
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Old January 19th, 2011   #85
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One advantage of the Model 56 is it can be broken down to 11 parts if needed, for transport. The only problem apart from its range - it uses the M1 shell - is that it's not very robust. Janes's reported that China many years ago bought 4 or 5 from Oto Melara and later came up with an almost exact Norinco made copy.
Well the model 56 in Italy also being used by Alps regiment, constitute with the model 56 light and easy transportable nature. Being a compact 105 mm howitzer I do believe some compromise must be taken compared to other 105 mm gun. Seems the compact. tranportable and light maintanance nature that attract the Army (then) Pindad to based their first 105 mm gun on Oto model 56.
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Old January 20th, 2011   #86
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Well the model 56 in Italy also being used by Alps regiment, constitute with the model 56 light and easy transportable nature. Being a compact 105 mm howitzer I do believe some compromise must be taken compared to other 105 mm gun. Seems the compact. tranportable and light maintanance nature that attract the Army (then) Pindad to based their first 105 mm gun on Oto model 56.
I'm not sure if the Alpini still uses the Model 56. Countries that operated the Model 56 in the past were Australia, Britain, Canada, etc. The Model 56 is the most numerous artillery piece in the Malaysian army, organised into Close Support Regiments, with about 140 bought from 1963 - 1982. They were first used by the Malaysian army in Borneo during the Confrontation.

What missiles has the TNI-AD equipped it's POPRAD mount with?
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Old January 20th, 2011   #87
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I'm not sure if the Alpini still uses the Model 56. Countries that operated the Model 56 in the past were Australia, Britain, Canada, etc. The Model 56 is the most numerous artillery piece in the Malaysian army, organised into Close Support Regiments, with about 140 bought from 1963 - 1982. They were first used by the Malaysian army in Borneo during the Confrontation.

What missiles has the TNI-AD equipped it's POPRAD mount with?
About a year ago, I read a news bulletin on Oto's site that show pictures of Mod 56 with Italian Alpine Regs. Seems Oto's want to show even it's old model, it's still reliable and tranportable enough for hard terain operation.

I'll try to look on latest TNI-AD missiles, so far TNI-AD rather reluctant to open their latest missiles inventory compared to TNI-AU or AL.
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Old January 21st, 2011   #88
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Poprad as part of the Cobra Air Defence system is equipped with the Grom missile from Poland.
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Old February 2nd, 2011   #89
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NBell 412-EP for the Army

From Detik.com with Google translate:

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Jakarta - PT Dirgantara Indonesia (PT DI) back adds ammunition to the defense of Indonesia through the army. They gave 1 unit NBELL 412 EP helicopters.

Delivery of the helicopter was held on Wednesday (2/1/11) at the Center for Army Aviation Squadron 21 Army, Pondok Cabe, Tangerang South. "This incident is proof of the readiness of PT DI in preparing the domestic defense industrial revitalization," said President Director Budi Santoso in his speech.

Meanwhile, Deputy Chief of Staff of the Army (Wakasad) Lieutenant General Suryo Prabowo who received this helicopter express his gratitude to PT DI. He said the cooperation with PT DI is gradually going to continue.

"This is testament to the Army's commitment to empower domestic production in line with the presidential mandate," he said.

According to the Army Aviation Center Commander Brig N Revelation Rianto, helicopters with 15 tons carrying capacity or can also carry 15 people including the pilot will be placed in Squadron 31, Semarang. "The plan for transport aircraft. But it will also be equipped with 30 mm gun on the left and right of the heli. This is for security as it was landing," he said.

Meanwhile, according to Army Logistics Chief Maj. Gen Wibowo, heli price was USD 11 million. He explained that, compared to other NBELL type helicopters, This NBELL 412-EP has a larger capacity engine and all equipment is digital. Another advantage of this heli be able to do auto-pilot hovering, Whille previous NBELL in TNI-AD inventory such as type 412 or 412 HP SP has not been able to do so.
This move, confirm TNI-AD decisions to standardise their Utility Helicopter fleet with Bell 412. NBell means that further deal already reached by Bell Helicopters to provide further batch of license to DI/IAe, since the previous license on manufacturing Bell 412 SP already completed.

Previous NBell 412 SP only capable to take 12 persons and 11 tons capacity. Seems the improvement on NBell 412 EP compared to SP type quite considerable.
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Old February 2nd, 2011   #90
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2. Once I read from Army source that they think Pindad guns (aka Oto Melara Pack Gun) is more suitable with TNI AD ability to transport them. It's light enough that any Landrover (which's still TNI AD standard 4x4) can tow them properly.
In my limited experience with Land Rovers, I somehow feel uncomfortable with the idea that they can tow a 1.2 ton Oto Melara 105mm artillery piece.

Furthermore, how many LRs do you need to tow/support each gun? You would have at least a crew of 4 to 5, and what about the ammo?

In rough country, the LR is barely able to move itself. I'm not saying it is weak, it is just not that powerful especially if it is more than 5 yrs old.

In SAF, the LR is rarely used to tow anything and its two main roles I've seen are as Signal Comms Relay vehicle and utility transport vehicle mostly for commanders.

The lightest artillery piece in SAF artillery units during my service days was what looked like a towed 120mm mortar (under 300kg). Still we used a Unimog (4x4 small truck) to tow it. At least the Unimog would be able to hold not only the crew but also some ammo.

(Apologies for referring to SAF all the time but it is my only point of reference that I'm familiar with.)
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