Best moon phase for ops

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jonboy79

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Could someone tell me the preferable moon phase for night time ops. A full moon will allow you to see without a light etc, but then would that not allow others to be able to see you. Where as a new moon should would make it harder to carry out objectives without a light, but allow more cover of darkness.
Regards jon
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
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Could someone tell me the preferable moon phase for night time ops. A full moon will allow you to see without a light etc, but then would that not allow others to be able to see you. Where as a new moon should would make it harder to carry out objectives without a light, but allow more cover of darkness.
Regards jon
depends on so many things.
Who are you fighting?
Where are you fighting?
What is the operation? Recon? for example. What night fighting ability do you or your enemy have?
Is it a maritime operation? What are the tidal movments? Big tides (springs) on full moon, neap (small) of half moon.....Your question can not be answered untill we know what sort of mission you are planning....
 

gf0012-aust

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Your question can not be answered untill we know what sort of mission you are planning....
Depends also on what blue team is geared up with.

eg I watched a DARPA/JAG combined presentation at LWC a few years back where the Manchu Div had a force do a K/C with no voice comms

2 x platoons, 6 heavy vehicles at latter stages. village of 120 people with 20+ armed in red team mingled,

basically they used a military version of a tablet. BFT, live feeds from UAS and as each grid was secured status sent to all in the teams. every member was wired up.

The Manchus were guinea pigs for the tech, some of which is filtering through to mainstream US units now - some of which other countries are absorbing into their own future soldier programs.

all of the capability used is fieldable now, som,e of it has been trialled and inactive dev since 2001

night is not an impediment :D
 

gf0012-aust

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Yes it is.

You try fighting at night in a no moon period when its overcast. Even NVGs don't help.

The trick is simply being better by night than the enemy.
in absolute terms if all things are equal on both sides - yes

in what DARPA showed us, on a moonless night, the right gear and training makes a significant change. and we were shown the entire mission set - 45 mins from ingress to egress

damn shame that gear that the US had some years ago is still not available to reg forces in aust as it obviously is a game changer
 

StingrayOZ

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Yes it is.

You try fighting at night in a no moon period when its overcast. Even NVGs don't help.

The trick is simply being better by night than the enemy.
Normal NVG are basically photomultipliers, but if its that dark, they don't have anything to multiply as Raven said.

I would imagine there is gear that could do it, thermal vision or active NVG, both of which may are may not be appropriate or available. Walking around with active NVG would be fantastic against poorly resourced rebels, but a giant beacon of a target for anyone else. Thermals are great but AFAIK as a poor layman, suffer from being bulkier, lower resolution, not fast reacting etc. They aren't going to suit every or even many missions.

I suppose you could conduct an operation by beaming in information from airborne/external sensors. Which is what I guess GF was talking about. I would imagine there are very few who train and could do that at this stage (entirely by remote sensors feed).

I would imagine moon timing is also important, with no moon up on a cloudy night blocking star light, it would be very dark, but in a few minutes a full moon can be up and there would be enough light to read a newspaper to.

Any good mission planning should take advantage or work with the natural environment, that includes weather and lighting. The best time really does depend on what your trying to do. An assassin might have the advantage of a total dark night. But when moving a platoon of sof through unfamiliar or complex terrain, more light might be useful.
 

Raven22

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damn shame that gear that the US had some years ago is still not available to reg forces in aust as it obviously is a game changer
It's not that much of a game changer.

There's a big difference between an SF platoon conducting a DA over the space of 45 minutes and, say, a light infantry platoon fighting and surviving in the jungle for weeks on end. No matter what kit you give the latter, its still going to come down to using hootchie cord to mark the harbour perimeter to stop people wanding off into the jungle.
 

jonboy79

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depends on so many things.
Who are you fighting?
Where are you fighting?
What is the operation? Recon? for example. What night fighting ability do you or your enemy have?
Is it a maritime operation? What are the tidal movments? Big tides (springs) on full moon, neap (small) of half moon.....Your question can not be answered untill we know what sort of mission you are planning....
Sorry, lots of valid points. Ok, not fighting anyone, but want to do night time geocaching in rural areas, with out being seen etc. Not to sure if you know what geocaching is, but it's a little box with swaps in and you write something in there and leave it for the next person. Using gps to get there. I want to do it at night time, so stealth side is included. I'm not in the military so this is prob the closest thing to doing a night time op. Plus there with be a overnight bivy bag sleep over. My biggest prob will be dogs, they hear you a mile away if the wind is right, and dont want some angry farmer coming out with his shotgun. I'm in the uk and as a nation firearms are carefully used. So it's not like me sneaking up on a redneck etc, who would prob shot before question lol no offence.

Also i will not have night vision etc, will be using dpm clothing and maybe my ghillie hat.
 
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Gremlin29

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It's not that much of a game changer.

There's a big difference between an SF platoon conducting a DA over the space of 45 minutes and, say, a light infantry platoon fighting and surviving in the jungle for weeks on end. No matter what kit you give the latter, its still going to come down to using hootchie cord to mark the harbour perimeter to stop people wanding off into the jungle.
NOD's are a gigantic game changer. Like any system they do have limitations but the Gen 3 stuff in current use in the US has eliminated most of the limiations of past generations.
 

gf0012-aust

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It's not that much of a game changer.

There's a big difference between an SF platoon conducting a DA over the space of 45 minutes and, say, a light infantry platoon fighting and surviving in the jungle for weeks on end. No matter what kit you give the latter, its still going to come down to using hootchie cord to mark the harbour perimeter to stop people wanding off into the jungle.
The Manchu are not SF. They're regular. The interesting post analysis reports had their team leaders cranky as they didn't want to give back their gear after using it for 12 months on op trials.
 

jonboy79

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The Manchu are not SF. They're regular. The interesting post analysis reports had their team leaders cranky as they didn't want to give back their gear after using it for 12 months on op trials.
Cool, and the answer to the post would be?
 

gf0012-aust

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Cool, and the answer to the post would be?

its been clearly stated already, not sure which bit is missing....

there is no "answer"

ultimately it boils down to craft and training - and then its gear advantages

the best gear in the world doesn't make you a good operator

a numpty is still a numpty no matter how you kit them out
 

jonboy79

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its been clearly stated already, not sure which bit is missing....

there is no "answer"

ultimately it boils down to craft and training - and then its gear advantages

the best gear in the world doesn't make you a good operator

a numpty is still a numpty no matter how you kit them out
So this will make it easier, no training, no night goggles no bat mobile just average joe.
 

gf0012-aust

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So this will make it easier, no training, no night goggles no bat mobile just average joe.
equipment is about enabling

gucci gear does not make anyone better if they don't have decent training and/or know their craft

training is always what starts separating the wheat from the chaff.

basics count.
 
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jonboy79

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equipment is about enabling

gucci gear does not make anyone better if they don't have decent training and/or know their craft

training is always what starts separating the wheat from the chaff.

basics counts.
Agreed but i'm talking about myself going geocaching at night and trying my best not to be seen. anyway after loads of google searches the only thing i can find to much help was the d day landings where they needed the light of the moon. i think night vision aids might be a bit ott for geocaching. am i right in saying that before night vision the full moon on a clear night would have been the better time?
 

Gremlin29

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Full moon is best unaided, based on physiology of the eye. The cells that sense light under low light conditions (the rods) are sparse where the eyes lens focuses light on the retinal wall. In low light conditions you will have a 15 degree blind spot at the center of your vision. You also lose the ability to estimate distance because you no longer have stereoscopic vision and will also lose the ability to focus which is why shapes appear soft or fuzzy at night. If you want to over analyze it you would be best to approach your target area with the moon low and bright to your back. A full moon on a clear night is hard on the eyes, it will actually make you squint when your eyes are fully night adapated, which takes 20 to 30 minutes
 
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jonboy79

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Full moon is best unaided, based on physiology of the eye. The cells that sense light under low light conditions (the rods) are sparse where the eyes lens focuses light on the retinal wall. In low light conditions you will have a 15 degree blind spot at the center of your vision. You also lose the ability to estimate distance because you no longer have stereoscopic vision and will also lose the ability to focus which is why shapes appear soft or fuzzy at night. If you want to over analyze it you would be best to approach your target area with the moon low and bright to your back. A full moon on a clear night is hard on the eyes, it will actually make you squint when your eyes are fully night adapated, which takes 20 to 30 minutes
Thats what i wanted to hear, thanks. also i would like to ask maybe a quater moon, a bit of both worlds?
 

Gremlin29

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That's up to you. Like the sun, moon position can be used to your advantage and you lose that when it is not full and bright.
 

StingrayOZ

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Thats what i wanted to hear, thanks. also i would like to ask maybe a quater moon, a bit of both worlds?
I know exactly what you should get for your missions.

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Spy-Net-Recording-Goggles-Vision/dp/B006859J8K/ref=dp_cp_ob_t_title_0"]Spy Net Recording Goggles - Night Vision : Toys & Games : Amazon.com@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41O4jQaSs5L.@@AMEPARAM@@41O4jQaSs5L[/ame]
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
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The only problem with the goggles is that the hair that has grown on the back of your hands and the very large canine teeth that the sprouted during the full moon impede the finer tuning controls.

Off course, as the moon fades to the last quarter, all these physical impediments abate and cease to be a problem.

Now, let me return to my very fine bottle of Howling Wolf Shiraz and consider further important lunar problems!
 
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