Go Back   DefenceTalk Forum - Military & Defense Forums > Global Defense & Military > Army & Security Forces

Defense News
Land, Air & Naval Forces






Military Photos
Latest Military Pictures
Defense Reports
Aerospace & Defence


Australian Army Discussions and Updates

This is a discussion on Australian Army Discussions and Updates within the Army & Security Forces forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by Aussie Digger As to having a new IFV designed here, Tenix and ADI are probably theonly 2 ...


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 16 votes, 3.75 average.
Old December 24th, 2006   #76
Grumpy Old Man
General
gf0012-aust's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 17,997
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aussie Digger View Post
As to having a new IFV designed here, Tenix and ADI are probably theonly 2 companies in Australia that could do it and would you WANT them to? I wouldn't trust them to upgrade the tyres on my car. Look at the utter abortion that is the M113 upgrade program...
ADI aka Another Defective Item. I know Thales saw it as a way in to get a bite of the Oz market and to extend into Sth East Asia from a firm base - but geez louise, they could have backed a better horse.... As it is, they will lose access into some projects as they're embargoed on some projects using US technology. Seems like a "'lose - less lose" situation to me.
________________
A corollary of Finagle's Law, similar to Occam's Razor, says:

"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
http://au.linkedin.com/pub/gary-fairlie/1/28a/2a2
http://cofda.wordpress.com/

gf a.k.a. ROBOPIMP T5C
gf0012-aust is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 24th, 2006   #77
Defense Professional / Analyst
Master Sergeant
No Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 354
Threads:
Not to be rude (as its Xmas), But I am still waiting on the "Armor for Australian Airborne; Why and How" paper FT.

Or have we given that up?

cheers

w
Wooki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 24th, 2006   #78
Junior Member
Private First Class
No Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 98
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wooki View Post
Not to be rude (as its Xmas), But I am still waiting on the "Armor for Australian Airborne; Why and How" paper FT.

Or have we given that up?

cheers

w

Wooki - What airborne?
scraw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 24th, 2006   #79
Aussie Digger
Guest
No Avatar
Posts: n/a
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by scraw View Post
Wooki - What airborne?
Futuretank, promised a PM on his theoretical thoughts (given they are soon to lose the role) on 3RAR gaining an "airborne" based armoured vehicle capability.

I think that's what Wooki was referring to...
  Reply With Quote
Old December 24th, 2006   #80
Junior Member
Private First Class
No Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 98
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aussie Digger View Post
Futuretank, promised a PM on his theoretical thoughts (given they are soon to lose the role) on 3RAR gaining an "airborne" based armoured vehicle capability.

I think that's what Wooki was referring to...
Ahh yes, aquiring a new vehicle for the 30 odd blokes we have ready to fall out the blunt end...
scraw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 26th, 2006   #81
Defense Professional / Analyst
Lieutenant Colonel
icelord's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Canberra, Australia
Posts: 1,220
Threads:
Quote:
quite possibly German SPG's for Land 17...
I believe the South Koreans have offered us something that was tested at pucka, not at home so can't confirm type, but someone here will. Speaking to a Transport driver a while ago, he always said the worst thing about being tied to Artillary was having to unload, reload and move, and that their numbers were so small that he would end up doing reloads, even though he was just the driver, with limited training in terms of Artillery. With Land 17 it would at least have less men to work on Artillery meaning more stations able to be manned.

As i've said before, some small Defence Companioes don't even supply to ADF, but overseas, try getting support for that in US.

Quote:
ADI aka Another Defective Item. I know Thales saw it as a way in to get a bite of the Oz market and to extend into Sth East Asia from a firm base - but geez louise, they could have backed a better horse.... As it is, they will lose access into some projects as they're embargoed on some projects using US technology. Seems like a "'lose - less lose" situation to me
Could Thales be looking more long term in their Acqusition of ADI, by gaining access to projects in the future, or getting more for their Euro Companies over US. Such as LHD Construction being split between here and there.

Last edited by icelord; December 26th, 2006 at 06:43 AM. Reason: Grammer nvr was a strong point of mine
icelord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 26th, 2006   #82
Grumpy Old Man
General
gf0012-aust's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 17,997
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by icelord View Post
Could Thales be looking more long term in their Acqusition of ADI, by gaining access to projects in the future, or getting more for their Euro Companies over US. Such as LHD Construction being split between here and there.
Well, the french aren't silly. They do take the longview. I don't approve of some things they do (and Francois knows why I get a bee in my bonnet ), but I absolutely respect their focus on getting to the end game.

The reality is that there will be some projects where Thales will be embargoed due to commercial conflict and confidentiality issues - and there will be a whole pile of new opportunities which they will find.

Bushmaster being a perfect example of this. Expect another announcement for Bushmaster Euro sales within the 9 months (and I'm not talking about another Dutch buy up)
________________
A corollary of Finagle's Law, similar to Occam's Razor, says:

"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
http://au.linkedin.com/pub/gary-fairlie/1/28a/2a2
http://cofda.wordpress.com/

gf a.k.a. ROBOPIMP T5C
gf0012-aust is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 26th, 2006   #83
Aussie Digger
Guest
No Avatar
Posts: n/a
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by icelord View Post
I believe the South Koreans have offered us something that was tested at pucka, not at home so can't confirm type, but someone here will. Speaking to a Transport driver a while ago, he always said the worst thing about being tied to Artillary was having to unload, reload and move, and that their numbers were so small that he would end up doing reloads, even though he was just the driver, with limited training in terms of Artillery. With Land 17 it would at least have less men to work on Artillery meaning more stations able to be manned.

As i've said before, some small Defence Companioes don't even supply to ADF, but overseas, try getting support for that in US.


Could Thales be looking more long term in their Acqusition of ADI, by gaining access to projects in the future, or getting more for their Euro Companies over US. Such as LHD Construction being split between here and there.
It was the K-9 Thunder, but the mere fact it was tested here, means nothing. The RFT hasn't even been released yet. The Caesar was tested here 2 years ago and the RFI documents and the requirement for "crew protection whilst firing" ruled out the "gun on a truck" solutions...

The BIG problem with the K-9 is that a second armoured vehicle, the "K-10" is required to accompany it. For every artillery piece, you need to acquire ANOTHER armoured vehicle.

Seems a bit pricey for the "least" capable of the vehicles offered...

But maybe that's just me...
  Reply With Quote
Old December 27th, 2006   #84
Potstirrer
General
Todjaeger's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: not in New England anymore...
Posts: 3,891
Threads:
Spg

Has the G6/L55 from Denel been looked at? I've always been rather impressed with the artillery pieces they put out. As I understand it, the G6 firing base-bleed rounds set a record for distance travelled by 155mm shells.

It is good though that Army is looking at getting some SPG, that will give them more options.

-Cheers
________________
Beware of Mr. Grumpy...
Todjaeger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 28th, 2006   #85
Aussie Digger
Guest
No Avatar
Posts: n/a
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Todjaeger View Post
Has the G6/L55 from Denel been looked at? I've always been rather impressed with the artillery pieces they put out. As I understand it, the G6 firing base-bleed rounds set a record for distance travelled by 155mm shells.

It is good though that Army is looking at getting some SPG, that will give them more options.

-Cheers
Yep the vehicle has been looked at and will be amongst the tenders bidding for the Land 17 contract, along with the Archer 155mm, PZH-2000, K-9 Thunder and possibly the AS-90 Braveheart.

The problem that the G6-52 has it that it is not in-service anywhere and therefore is not "Kinnaird" compliant and is considered "developmental". Kinnaird was a review conducted of ADF's acquisition processeses several years ago and basically states that "in-service" (ie: non-developmental) platforms are to be considered before "developmental" ones. It doesn't completely rule out a developmental platform, but it would have to have a SIGNIFICANT operational and probable cost advantage over a non-developmental project to "get up".

Thus, PZH-2000, K-9 and AS-90 are in the "box seat" already being in-service with other Armies, whilst Archer and G6-52 are considered "developmental". The fact that Acher has a confirmed order from Sweden for 40 odd vehicles, means it's "border-line" non-developmental, which might be enough.

Anyhoo we'll see. It promises to be an interesting program no matter which platform they pick and will deliver a massive boost in combat power for the Australian Army.
  Reply With Quote
Old December 28th, 2006   #86
Potstirrer
General
Todjaeger's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: not in New England anymore...
Posts: 3,891
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aussie Digger View Post
Yep the vehicle has been looked at and will be amongst the tenders bidding for the Land 17 contract, along with the Archer 155mm, PZH-2000, K-9 Thunder and possibly the AS-90 Braveheart.

The problem that the G6-52 has it that it is not in-service anywhere and therefore is not "Kinnaird" compliant and is considered "developmental". Kinnaird was a review conducted of ADF's acquisition processeses several years ago and basically states that "in-service" (ie: non-developmental) platforms are to be considered before "developmental" ones. It doesn't completely rule out a developmental platform, but it would have to have a SIGNIFICANT operational and probable cost advantage over a non-developmental project to "get up".

Thus, PZH-2000, K-9 and AS-90 are in the "box seat" already being in-service with other Armies, whilst Archer and G6-52 are considered "developmental". The fact that Acher has a confirmed order from Sweden for 40 odd vehicles, means it's "border-line" non-developmental, which might be enough.

Anyhoo we'll see. It promises to be an interesting program no matter which platform they pick and will deliver a massive boost in combat power for the Australian Army.
The G6-52 (or is it 55?) is still considered a development vehicle? I was under the impression that all development work had been completed and was awaiting the first order. From what I remember, India had placed an order with Denel, then backed out when the issue of bribery came up.

Also, how different is the G6-52 compared to the G6? That has been in service with South Africa, and I believe a few other armies, for some time.

You're right though, pretty much whatever is chosen will be a boost for the Australian Army.

-Cheers
________________
Beware of Mr. Grumpy...
Todjaeger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 28th, 2006   #87
Defense Professional / Analyst
Sergeant
rickshaw's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oz
Posts: 252
Threads:
According to Global Security, the G6-52 is a new system:

Quote:
Originally Posted by http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/rsa/g6-52.htm
Although outwardly resembling South Africa's renowned 155mm G6 wheeled Self-Propelled (SP) artillery system, the G6-52 is substantially different - to such a degree that it is justifiably promoted as an entirely new system.
rickshaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 28th, 2006   #88
Aussie Digger
Guest
No Avatar
Posts: n/a
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Todjaeger View Post
The G6-52 (or is it 55?) is still considered a development vehicle? I was under the impression that all development work had been completed and was awaiting the first order. From what I remember, India had placed an order with Denel, then backed out when the issue of bribery came up.

Also, how different is the G6-52 compared to the G6? That has been in service with South Africa, and I believe a few other armies, for some time.

You're right though, pretty much whatever is chosen will be a boost for the Australian Army.

-Cheers
By "development" Kinnaird requirements mean "not currently in-service" anywhere else.

The G6-52 has not been ordered by any other Country yet, let alone introduced into service. This and it's weight are going to be the biggest factors counting against it...
  Reply With Quote
Old December 28th, 2006   #89
Defense Professional / Analyst
Corporal
No Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 184
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by gf0012-aust View Post
ADI aka Another Defective Item.
Or as the Diggers, say, Another Dumb Invention.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gf0012-aust View Post
Bushmaster being a perfect example of this. Expect another announcement for Bushmaster Euro sales within the 9 months (and I'm not talking about another Dutch buy up)
Oh, come on gf, THAT'S NOT FAIR!!!
Simon9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 28th, 2006   #90
Entertainer
General
Grand Danois's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: CPH
Posts: 3,297
Threads:
GF is doing that all the time...
________________
"Of course, the whole point of a Doomsday Machine is lost, if you keep it a secret! Why didn't you tell the world, eh?"
Grand Danois is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:51 PM.