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This is a discussion on Australian Army Discussions and Updates within the Army & Security Forces forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by John Fedup I recall a TV documentary about the Abrams tank factory showing how old model Abrams ...


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Old 1 Week Ago   #5491
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Originally Posted by John Fedup View Post
I recall a TV documentary about the Abrams tank factory showing how old model Abrams tanks are refurbished. The hulls, turrets, and wheels were all reused after cleaning. Pretty much everything else was new.
That documentary was actually the Australian tanks being done

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dG4CLaBMfVU

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Old 1 Week Ago   #5492
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I recall a TV documentary about the Abrams tank factory showing how old model Abrams tanks are refurbished. The hulls, turrets, and wheels were all reused after cleaning. Pretty much everything else was new.
The question I would have is whether the Abrams were being re-manufactured, or being zero-timed and upgraded.

If they were being upgraded to a newer standard, I could see a need to replace most/all the internals in addition to a high wear item like the engine or power pack.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #5493
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Maybe if we had more tanks brigades in WW11 we may have had a different army structure in the generations that followed.

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Well we actually had a fair bit of armour in WWII its just that Japans entry into the war meant the divisions never deployed to North Africa as intended and were mostly disbanded to free up manpower with only independent Brigades being deployed in support of the Infantry Divisions in the Pacific.

Interestingly (as I recall it) South Africa and the UK both converted Infantry formations to tanks to save manpower as armour requires significantly less manpower than infantry. The Brits actually went further than the South Africans to the point their tanks lacked sufficient infantry support while the South Africans (and New Zealanders for that matter) only converted a third of their force. The usual Australian scale of tanks to Infantry was one regiment per division, like the US Army Infantry divisions (verses their Armoured and Mechanised Divisions).

I wonder if the issue is in part due to the romantic (political) view that Australians were natural civilian soldiers who could simply don uniforms and pick up rifles as required to build on the ANZAC legend. This was definitely the case post WWI when Monash and Chauvel were both ignored by government when they desired to form a regular mechanised / motorised army retaining some of the many vehicles owned and paid for by the Australian tax payer during the war. As I understand it huge amounts of equipment was simply abandoned overseas as the government saw no need to retain it.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #5494
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Originally Posted by Stampede View Post
Maybe if we had more tanks brigades in WW11 we may have had a different army structure in the generations that followed.
Quite a sizeable armored force was raised during WWII including multiple independant and attached regiments, battalions and brigades as well as 3 divisions. Wasn't it there being a lack of armor being raised but rather the nature of warfare in WWII for Australia changing from NA/Europe to that of the jungles of Asia where armor had more limited uses in limited numbers. The only way Australia would have ever retained a large armored force post WWII was if Japan never became involved, Soon as they did large armored formations in great numbers became a liability rather then an asset.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #5495
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The main reason I raised the tank issue is because I have been reading where the US and joint German/France are looking into lighter weight tanks, in the 38 ton range, which will be simpler to transport than 60 plus ton MBTs. I am wondering whether these will come into consideration when they are introduced?
I think in these armies, the lighter weight tanks are meant to supplement the existing MBTís and be used more as a mobile fire support variant, rather than as a proper MBT.

Given we appear to be struggling to justify a boost in numbers of the tank we already have (as it isnít approved yet...) Iím not sure a new, additional vehicle is on the cards... Perhaps as a long term replacement for the Abrams, but Iím not sure that is a sufficient vehicle if you are only going to operate one type.

We may have to confront actual tanks one day...
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Old 1 Week Ago   #5496
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Originally Posted by Todjaeger View Post
The question I would have is whether the Abrams were being re-manufactured, or being zero-timed and upgraded.

If they were being upgraded to a newer standard, I could see a need to replace most/all the internals in addition to a high wear item like the engine or power pack.
The tanks were in sad shape and were being re-manufacturered, not upgraded. Canít remember where but I read an article about the sep 3 upgrade which is a an evaluation run of 500 tanks for an eventual sep 4 which will be a major upgrade for the Abrams force.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #5497
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I think in these armies, the lighter weight tanks are meant to supplement the existing MBTís and be used more as a mobile fire support variant, rather than as a proper MBT.

Given we appear to be struggling to justify a boost in numbers of the tank we already have (as it isnít approved yet...) Iím not sure a new, additional vehicle is on the cards... Perhaps as a long term replacement for the Abrams, but Iím not sure that is a sufficient vehicle if you are only going to operate one type.

We may have to confront actual tanks one day...
Barring some huge advancement in light effect armour, 60-70 MBTs will be the he norm for major power conflicts. Air transportable 30-40 ton tanks with modular armour will be for secondary wars and peace making missions.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #5498
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The tanks were in sad shape and were being re-manufacturered, not upgraded. Canít remember where but I read an article about the sep 3 upgrade which is a an evaluation run of 500 tanks for an eventual sep 4 which will be a major upgrade for the Abrams force.
And some of the tanks which came out of the end of the line had Roos painted on them.
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Old 19 Hours Ago   #5499
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Structure of 2 RAR.
Had a quick flick through a defence rag at the newsagent today.
Had a short article about the re structure of 2 RAR.
4 infantry platoons.
1 Recon/Sniper PL.
A Sig PL
Small boat PL
DFSW PL.

So a rifle coy +, and a support coy - plus an HQ.

Kinda sounds like reserve commando company, and I'm guessing their role will eventually be more of a marine commando than marine infantry. Anyone have more insight?

Not sure what to think really....Just read a couple of blogs about the restructure, and to me at least, it seems that 2RAR will be somewhere between a training aid,recon force,and a suicide squad.
One of the roles given is to secure beachheads and LZ,s for a larger force......with 4 PLs!
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Old 11 Hours Ago   #5500
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Structure of 2 RAR.
Had a quick flick through a defence rag at the newsagent today.
Had a short article about the re structure of 2 RAR.
4 infantry platoons.
1 Recon/Sniper PL.
A Sig PL
Small boat PL
DFSW PL.

So a rifle coy +, and a support coy - plus an HQ.

Kinda sounds like reserve commando company, and I'm guessing their role will eventually be more of a marine commando than marine infantry. Anyone have more insight?

Not sure what to think really....Just read a couple of blogs about the restructure, and to me at least, it seems that 2RAR will be somewhere between a training aid,recon force,and a suicide squad.
One of the roles given is to secure beachheads and LZ,s for a larger force......with 4 PLs!
2 RAR is structure day to only provide specialist amphibious capabilities, such as the pre-landing force. The ground combat element will come from the ready brigade as required. The online ARE will be from the Ready Battle Group, on a rotating basis.

Essentially 2RAR is the skeleton on which the ARE/ARU/ARG will be built.
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Old 7 Hours Ago   #5501
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Originally Posted by old faithful View Post
Structure of 2 RAR.
Had a quick flick through a defence rag at the newsagent today.
Had a short article about the re structure of 2 RAR.
4 infantry platoons.
1 Recon/Sniper PL.
A Sig PL
Small boat PL
DFSW PL.

So a rifle coy +, and a support coy - plus an HQ.

Kinda sounds like reserve commando company, and I'm guessing their role will eventually be more of a marine commando than marine infantry. Anyone have more insight?

Not sure what to think really....Just read a couple of blogs about the restructure, and to me at least, it seems that 2RAR will be somewhere between a training aid,recon force,and a suicide squad.
One of the roles given is to secure beachheads and LZ,s for a larger force......with 4 PLs!
Only after it has been cleared by SOCOMD operations...

No-one in Army is planning for us to seize beach heads with four platoons... Their role is to secure the entry point and enable the ARE to safely make it to shore, not fight through any enemy defensive positions. That isnít the style of amphibious operations we are planning on conducting.
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Old 6 Hours Ago   #5502
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2RAR will be called 2RAR (Amphib) - CONTACT magazine

I figured that, as 4 PL would be stretched to secure a big LZ alone.
Based on some of the comments from the above link, CO of 2RAR.

There is mention of integrating reserves in the structure.
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Old 3 Hours Ago   #5503
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2RAR will be called 2RAR (Amphib) - CONTACT magazine

I figured that, as 4 PL would be stretched to secure a big LZ alone.
Based on some of the comments from the above link, CO of 2RAR.

There is mention of integrating reserves in the structure.
As AD mentioned, the whole point of the amphib capability is to land your forces where the enemy arenít.

The reserve companies are basically just a Way for 2 RAR to practice being a battalion, without any permanent rifle companies. The reserves wonít be part of the amphib capability, but basically a training aid.

Iíve seen the planning thatís gone into that aspiration - I canít see it working very well.
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Old 1 Hour Ago   #5504
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As AD mentioned, the whole point of the amphib capability is to land your forces where the enemy arenít.

The reserve companies are basically just a Way for 2 RAR to practice being a battalion, without any permanent rifle companies. The reserves wonít be part of the amphib capability, but basically a training aid.

Iíve seen the planning thatís gone into that aspiration - I canít see it working very well.
Its OK AD and Raven, I get it.
I totally understand about hot DZ,s and apply similar thinking to amphib operations.
Just reading about 2 RAR , and its roll, revised roll, and now revised,revised roll, I can't help but think that resources could be used else where, and a special training cardre be raised in its place, with a demo PL, and training staff for all areas of amphib operations. Call a spade a spade.
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Old 40 Minutes Ago   #5505
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Its OK AD and Raven, I get it.
I totally understand about hot DZ,s and apply similar thinking to amphib operations.
Just reading about 2 RAR , and its roll, revised roll, and now revised,revised roll, I can't help but think that resources could be used else where, and a special training cardre be raised in its place, with a demo PL, and training staff for all areas of amphib operations. Call a spade a spade.
Except 2RAR Amphib actually has an operational role to perform, which your proposed idea would not...

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think this idea is perfect and clearly neither does Raven as he has already suggested he doesn’t think the reserve company rotation is well thought through.

The fact that our regular army is so tiny that we can’t even assign a full battalion to this role when they bang on to our Army pivoting to being an amphibious force, is a disgrace and our politicians and ADF Head Sheds should hang their heads in shame over this.
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