Antitank missiles

.pt

New Member
Reading some posts about MBT, Armour, etc, i started to wonder about antitank missiles and their efectiveness in knocking out todays MBT. One example i thought about is in Iraq, M1A2 Abrams just dont apear to be afraid of things like RPG that surely those Iraqui guerrillas have. So, can someone tell me about current types of antitank missiles in the worlds military, and their perceived efectiveness?Thanks in advance.
.pt
 

DoC_FouALieR

New Member
There are numerous kinds of Anti Tank Guided Missile (ATGM), but they are guided weapons, so don't confuse with Rocket Propelled Grenades (RPGs) that are unguided free flight rockets (like the RPG-7), or projectiles comming from a recoiless gun (like the Swedish Carl Gustav).
However, both ATGM and unguided projectiles use the same principle to achieve a penetration on an armoured target, that is hollow or shaped charge.

There are several families of ATGM:
-"classic" ATGM like the US Tow or the European Milan. They often use a SACLOS (Semi Automatic Command to Line Of Sight) guidance, i.e. the operator must track the target during the time of flight of the missile. It is the laucher and command unit (LCU) that generates guidance commands that are send to the missile by using a despooling wire or a radio link. They usually have a direct trajectory toward their target and low speed inherently to their guidance principle, though they can sometimes be top-attacker (like the TOW 2B) by using a downward directed shaped charge, or supersonic like the russian made AT-6 Spiral.
n order to be tracked by the CLU, the missile has a rear mounted beacon, usually a flare or infrared light. Thus the system can be confused if the target use a form of infrared decoy or jammer. If using a radio data link, the later can be jammed too.
To achieve a kill, the more modern use a tandem shaped charge that can punch through reactive armor, the first warhead detonates it, and the second penetrates the main armor.
They are still in used beacause they are not expensive and remain efficient not only against armoured vehicle but also against foritifications.

-Fire and forget and long range ATGM like the US Javelin, Hellfire, etc etc...
They can use Infrared Imaging ,TV-, laser- or mmW radar-guidance to reach their target. Apart of the laser guided weapon, they are then fire-and-forget weapons. Several flight profil can be selected before launch, and often they tend to use a balistic flight path in order to increase their range and attack their target from above, in its weak point...
For the Hellfire which is a heliborne weapon, variants include laser guidance that can be ensure by the helo or someone else with a laser designator or mmW guided rounds that can be launched in salvo while targeting data are sent before (LOBL) or after (LOAL) launch.
It is recognized that thay have much more potentiel than "classic" ATGMs but they are expensive and often they cannot be controlled after launch so the gunner have to make sure he is firing at the right target.
 

.pt

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #3
Atgm

Thanks for that explanation, i was indeed putting everything in the same bag.
If i understood correctly, RPG types are most likely to be used at shorter distances from targets, don´t require skilled operators, and probably it would take a larger number of hits to disable a tank, and in my view thats a suicidal proposition these days, thats probably why they arent that efective in iraq, its just too dificult to reach an MBT and shoot without being spotted first?
about the other type, ATGM, i would like to concentrate on the types fired from ground vehicles or infantry squads, not the ones fired from helicopters or airplanes. Are these weapons really efective in one shot? at what ranges are they tipically fired? Also some info on other types of missiles being used/produced, not necessarily western ones, say, asian, or south africa, would be apreciated. The range, specially is very interesting, because once you fire a missile, the target will likely spot the position it was fired from, and then, it can retaliate? If these missiles can shoot a MBT with only one shot its a very good and inexpensive way of taking out MBT, assuming one survives that operation.
.pt
 

DoC_FouALieR

New Member
thats probably why they arent that efective in iraq, its just too dificult to reach an MBT and shoot without being spotted first?
Watch this very long discussed topic about the question of killing an M1 Abrams

i would like to concentrate on the types fired from ground vehicles or infantry squads, not the ones fired from helicopters or airplanes. Are these weapons really efective in one shot? at what ranges are they tipically fired?
The question of effectiveness depends of numerous factors, since 1 tank vs 1 ATGM is unlikely. It is up to the doctrine and tactics used by armoured formation and Anti tank compagnies to do the best with their own weaponry... Yet we can still talk about "pure" performance of infantry ATGMs...

-"classic" ATGMs have their varying from 600 meters (French Eryx shoulder-launched missile) up to 3750 m (TOW) or even 4000 m (russian made Kornet-E or european Hot). However the more the range is increased, the more the weight is increased, so long range system are most likely to be vehicle mounted (like the TOW on Hummvees or HOT on VABs), but they are "stand-off" weapons, i.e they are capable to engage ennemy tanks before being engaged (though russian tanks can fire HE projectile up to 4000m...).
Their terminal efficient depends a lot of the aspect of the target, because a hit at the frontal armor of a modern tanks is not likely to destroy it. With those ATGMs you have to shoot the target at his flanks or rear to ensure a kill. (the exception being missiles with top-attack mode like swedish Bill, TOW-2B or Predator)

-Others F&F missiles like the Javelin or israeli Spikes missiles have their range increased (4000m for the Spike) though being infantry-portable because they use a balistic flight path instead of a direct trajectory. They don't require the operator to track the target too, thus enabling him to go cover immediatly after launch. Moreover, they tend to attack the armor at the top, where it is weak, in this case we don't have to worry about the aspect of the target when you fire the weapon. But they are expensive.
 

killbill2

New Member
Just to give you an idea of some antitank weapons effects and their different approaches.

ATGM's like Maverick are direct attack although direct attack and although it has the tendency to hit frontal armor the warhead makes up for that since it has a 125lb shaped charge(most ATGMS' with a ballistic trajectory have a 15-20lb max).the diameteris also twice as wide.

AGM-65A/B AGM-65D AGM-65E AGM-65F/G
Length 2.49 m (98 in)
Wingspan 71.9 cm (28.3 in)
Diameter 30.5 cm (12 in)
Weight 209 kg (462 lb) 220 kg (485 lb) 285 kg (630 lb) 304 kg (670 lb)
Speed supersonic
Range > 27 km (17 miles)
Propulsion Thiokol SR109-TC-1 solid-fuel rocket Thiokol SR114-TC-1 (or Aerojet SR115-AJ-1) solid-fuel rocket
Warhead 57 kg (125 lb) WDU-20/B shaped-charge 136 kg (300 lb) WDU-24/B penetrating blast-fragmentation
http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-65.html

stats at btoom of page


Hellfire,joint common missile and brimstone will hit the top armor.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/images/hellfire-trajectory1.gif
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/images/hellfire-trajectory2.gif
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/images/hellfire-trajectory3.gif
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/images/hellfire-trajectory4.gif

The first delivery mode is known as the Lock-on Before Launch (LOBL) technique. In this mode, the missile laser seeker acquires and locks-on to the coded laser energy reflected from the target prior to launch. The advantage to using this particular delivery mode is that the air crew is assured that the missile has already positively locked on to the target prior to launch from the aircraft, thereby reducing the possibility of a lost or uncontrolled missile. The disadvantages of a LOBL delivery revolve around the trajectory of the Hellfire missile. To compensate for a low cloud ceiling, an aircraft may need to expose itself to threat weapons ranges in order to ensure a successful engagement.

One method to reduce the maximum altitude of the Hellfire’s flight trajectory is to select the Lock-on After Launch -Direct (LOAL-DIR) delivery mode. This delivery mode results in the lowest of all trajectories during missile flight because it is employed using a laser designation delay. Overall, depending on the length of laser delay time, the maximum altitude reached during the flight trajectory is much lower; a distinct advantage over all other delivery modes. The downside to this method, however, is that air crew is not assured of positive lock-on prior to launch.

The last two delivery modes are unique in that they allow the launch aircraft to remain masked behind terrain to reduce its firing signature and increase aircraft survivability. These delivery modes are known as Lock-on After Launch - High (LOAL-HI) and Lock-on After Launch -Low (LOAL-LO). The first mode, LOAL-HI, allows the missile to clear a 1,000 ft. high terrain feature to front of the aircraft, provided the aircraft remains a minimum of 1500 meters away from that terrain feature. This technique is most effective in a remote engagement. The major disadvantage of employing the LOAL-HI method, however, is that the missile flies the highest trajectory of all delivery modes and is most susceptible to a break in missile lock due to penetration of low-lying clouds. Using the last delivery mode, LOAL-LO, will help to reduce the maximum altitude of the Hellfire trajectory somewhat, but will also limit the size of the terrain mask utilized by the aircraft for survivability.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/agm-114-employ.htm

In 1991, the production of a new variant, AGM-114F, (sometimes referred to as Interim Hellfire) was authorised. The major improvement incorporated was a precursor warhead to give the missile the ability to defeat reactive armour. As a result of an identified shortcoming of the Hellfire system during the 1991 Gulf War and in order to introduce other improvements, a further development programme was started in 1991. In the early days, the programme was known as the Hellfire Optimised Missile Systems (HOMS), but has since been designated AGM-114K and renamed Hellfire 2. AGM-114K incorporates improvements over the AGM-114F including solving the laser obscurant/backscatter problem. Other improvements incorporated are; improved target re-acquisition capability, a digital autopilot to increase launch speeds from 300 knots to M1.1 and produce a steeper terminal dive onto armoured targets, a more powerful precursor warhead, reprogrammability to adapt to changing threats and mission requirements, improved electro-optical countermeasures and regaining the original Hellfire missile length and weight. After successful firing tests, the initial production contract for AGM-114K was awarded in 1993 and deliveries started in December 1994. A second Hellfire 2 (AGM-114K) was developed from 1994, with a blast fragmentation warhead for use against ship targets.
http://www.janes.com/defence/air_forces/news/jalw/jalw001013_1_n.shtml

The digital autopilot, based on an Intel microprocessor, provides more accurate control during short-range engagements, and permits trajectory shaping allowing Hellfire 2 to fly beneath cloud cover so that its seeker does not lose target lock on. It also ensures that the terminal phase, dive trajectory remains constant at the optimum angle, regardless of range. It is reported that Hellfire 2 can engage targets between 0.5 and 9 km. The second AGM-114K Hellfire 2 missile version has a 12.5 kg HE blast/fragmentation warhead for use against ship targets and this increases the missile weight to 47.9 kg.
http://www.janes.com/defence/air_forces/news/jalw/jalw001013_1_n.shtml

Hellfire II features a completely new digital autopilot, a bigger precursor warhead, an improved seeker better suited to signal loss and countermeasures, and reprogrammable software. The last feature can be used to dynamically select different attack profiles (e.g. top or side attack) and precursor/main warhead detonation timing, to optimize the efficiency of the missile against different types of targets. Although the Hellfire II uses a tandem warhead like the AGM-114F, the improved systems allowed the use of the original shorter airframe of the AGM-114A/B/C. Because of its lighter components, maximum range is somewhat larger than that of the AGM-114F. It was originally intended to build two versions of Hellfire II, the AGM-114J for the Army and the AGM-114K with a new electronic SAD for the Navy/USMC. The AGM-114J was not produced, however, and all services adopted the AGM-114K. The first production AGM-114Ks were delivered in December 1994. The CATM-114K is a captive-carry training variant of the AGM-114K. Boeing also developed a derative of the AGM-114K with a blast-fragmentation warhead (also used in the Swedish RBS-17 derivative) for anti-ship use. This variant, sometimes unofficially designated AGM-114KBF (-114K, Blast-Fragmentation), was intended for export.
http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-114.html

The CTV-1 flight followed a computer-generated simulation trajectory. The CTV missile, a near-tactical prototype configuration, contained mass simulators in place of the seeker and warhead assemblies, with sufficient guidance electronics to fly scripted trajectories to the maximum range.
http://www.spacedaily.com/news/missiles-05zzd.html
All hellfires,Brimstones, and Joint common missiles fly a ballistic trajectory.

Ballsitic trjaectories are not the same as a top attack trajectory. Although both trajectories will give youa very high chance of hitting the thin top armor they're not the same. Top attack flies to aroundthis height.

The top attack mode is selected against tanks, in which case the Javelin climbs above and strikes down on the target to penetrate the roof of the tank where there is the least armour protection. The missile is launched at an 18° elevation angle to reach a peak altitude of 150m in top attack mode and 50m in direct fire mode.
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/javelin/

Ballsitic trajectories have a steeper climb and a slightly steeper dive as seen in the hellfire trajectory chart.
The TOW 2B is the newest version of the TOW missile which will provide additional capability against future armored threats, starting production as an engineering change proposal to the FY 1990 production contract. The TOW 2B Missile incorporates new fly-over, shoot-down technology. The TOW 2B entered production in late 1991.
The TOW 2B was designed to attack targets from the top. The missile's trajectory places the missile slightly above the target when its two warheads explode downward. TOW 2B features a dual-mode sensor and a new armament section equipped with two warheads substantially different from those used in other TOW versions.
Earlier TOWs are direct-attack missiles with nose-mounted warheads that fire forward. The TOW 2B is designed to fly over the top of a tank and destroy it from above, where is is less heavily armored, by simultaneously detonating the missile's two Explosively Formed Penetrator (EFP) warheads downward. The fly-over shoot-down flight profile permits the attack of targets in defilade or protected by berms or other fortifications.
TOW 2B resembles the TOW 2A, with a six-inch diameter warhead section in front, but without the standoff probe. Similarly, with only software modifications, the TOW 2B is compatible with all TOW 2 launcher platforms and equipment already in the field.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/tow-var.htm

TOW 2B is another example of a top attack trajectory.

tehn theres the glide down trajectory which like ballisitc and top attack hit the top of the armor.

The BAT is an acoustic and infrared (IR) guided submunition that autonomously searches for, tracks and defeats armored and critical mobile targets. The BAT is a propulsionless, aerodynamically controlled vehicle (glider). The BAT is delivered to the target vicinity by the Army Tactical Missile System (Army TACMS), which is launched from the M270 Multiple Launch Rocket System (MLRS). As such, BAT is part of the MLRS Family of Munitions (MFOM). The submunition is designed to provide capability to attack deep, high-payoff and time critical targets.

The dual mode (acoustic/IR) seeker and gliding capability accommodate large target location uncertainties due to such efforts as target motion, configuration or orientation; winds, delivery vehicle accuracy or delivery patterns. This flexibility also accommodates variability in the decision-to-shooter timeline and obviates the need for inflight targeting updates to the Army TACMS. SYSTEM CHARACTERISTICS:
Prior to dispense, the BAT thermal battery is initiated, the flight software and mission parameters are downloaded, and the IMU is aligned. After dispense at subsonic and supersonic speeds, the BAT stabilizes itself, slows to acquisition speeds, and deploys its aerodynamic surfaces. The BAT acquires the target or target groups, glides to the immediate target area and selects an individual vehicle to be engaged, ensuring that not all BATs pick the same target. A top down, hit-to-kill terminal profile is prosecuted toward a selected vulnerable region of the targeted vehicle. On impact, the tandem conventional shaped-charge warhead is detonated, assuring an M, F, or K-kill and collectively (with the other dispensed BATs) securing delay, disruption or destruction of the targeted enemy unit.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/atacms-bat.htm

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/images/bat_del4.jpg
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/images/bat2.jpg
http://www.raytheon.com/products/bat/

there are plenty of types of anti armor weapons. most of them hit the top of the armor even though their lfight path/height will be different.

Although many types of anti tank weapons can kill a tank even the latest like T90/95 CHallenger2,M1A2 etc etc etc in one hit. The problem is reaching out and touching it. Tanks will have plenty of support like MANPADS, all sorts of air defenes,CAS, bomber support, attack helo support, and other types of air support along with long range artillery supoort and infantry support. Getting close enough to use them is going to be tough. Which is why establishing air dominance is necessary since it opens the door to all other operation.Whoever controls the sky will have the greatest advantage and turn the tide in a conflict.
 
Last edited:

.pt

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #6
Atgm

Thanks for all the info, guys.
Sure took me some time to read and digest all that info on those forum threads and links, but now, i´m a litttle bit more enlightned as to their capabilities, designs and methods of atack.
Lock this.
.pt
 

swerve

Super Moderator
DoC_FouALieR & killbill2 have described most variations, but I can think of one they've missed.

As well as unguided RPGs & the like, & guided weapons (either homing, or guided all the way), there are now weapons which, although not guided as such, will fly to a point where the target is predicted to be, e.g. the UK/Swedish MBT-LAW/NLAW. The operator tracks the target for a few seconds, & then fires. The missile will fly to where it expects the target to be, not where it was last aimed at. It can also be set to fly to where it's pointed, & has a choice of top attack (overflight) or direct attack.

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/mbt_law/
 
Top