ADF: "Needs more troops"

Supe

New Member
According to General Cosgrove:

OUTGOING defence force chief General Peter Cosgrove today backed calls for up to 2000 more troops for the army.

General Cosgrove, who stands down at the top of the defence force and hands over to Air Marshal Angus Houston next week, said there was an evolution in the way wars were being fought.

He said the conclusion that more troops were needed – the army has about 25,600 fulltime personnel – was fairly recent.

"We are talking in the last few months that we have become persuaded that to do it properly we may need to ask government for another 1000 to 2000 troops in the army," he told the Nine Network .

"It is not something which has been sitting there unconsidered by government. It is really just evolving thought.

The Australian
Will recruitment be able to get these additional numbers? I'm not familiar with how successful ADF recruitment is. Going by the TV ads, the theme has become more aggressive which is a departure from the previous 'softer' type ads. The older theme probably drove the sort of folks away that the Army needs to attract. Those who want to be warriors.
 
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Snayke

New Member
All I know is I'm going to apply on December 4. Maybe as a rifleman or an electrician. That's one down towards the target.

I'm not sure about the ads. They look alright. I guess they gotta recruit people who want to defend Australia. =)
 
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Aussie Digger

Guest
Well, the White Paper 2000 promised 6 regular infantry battalion groups for the Australian Army. We currently have 5 given that 4RAR Commando cannot properly be considered an infantry battalion, given that it has completely converted to the Special Forces role. There has been a tendancy in the past to count 4 RAR as both, but it would be impossible for 4 RAR to revert to a light infantry battalion now it's structured completely differently.

In my opinion the best option, though not necessarily the cheapest would be to convert 1 Brigade into a properly structured mechanised Brigade and equip it with another mechanised infantry battalion, plus supporting elements including an additional artillery Bty with 8/12 Med Regt and another tank squadron within 1 Armd Regt. These enhancements would take between 1000 - 2000 troops to manage, probably what Gen Cosgrove has in mind...

I have no doubt that recruiting additional soldiers would not be a problem. The problems with recruiting have occurred because of a lack of funding for additional recruits and a deliberate attempt by the Government to restrict recruting in order to reduce costs...
 

seantheaussie

New Member
Aussie Digger said:
In my opinion the best option, though not necessarily the cheapest would be to convert 1 Brigade into a properly structured mechanised Brigade and equip it with another mechanised infantry battalion, plus supporting elements including an additional artillery Bty with 8/12 Med Regt and another tank squadron within 1 Armd Regt.
I hate mechanised/motorised battalions. We had a brilliantly cost effective Light Horse squadrons shared between battalions & now we want to throw it all away for fashion. What % of infantry are in their carriers at any one time? In anything short of charging for baghdad not 100%.
I hate Aussie brigades. They are simply not used enough. The fact that the vast majority of deployments are reinforced battalion or less & that many DOA scenarios require dispersed operations strongly suggests to me independent battalions ready to plug into allied divisions for support.
I seem to hate a lot:D
 
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Aussie Digger

Guest
Hate is not a good thing Sean... Anyway, my last unit was 2/14 Light Horse Regt. It is changing into a Cavalry unit now, but in my day was an APC Regt. We had an authorised strength of 2 Sabre Squadrons, with 3 APC troops of 6 vehicles per troop. 18 vehicles therefore made up a Squadron.

With a full Regimental deployment we could have lifted maybe half of 6 RAR in a single movement. 6 RAR being one of the 3 battalions that we had to support, (the others being 25/49 RQR and 9 RQR).

As I'm sure you can see, using a Light Horse or a Mounted Rifles APC Regt was a VERY ineffective military capability. It cost next to nothing, but that was traded off for almost no real combat capability whatsoever.

If our Regt was to be dispersed (and 7 Brigade was supposedly one of the Army's 3 "High-readiness" Brigades mind you) in DOA operations the very best combat formations we could have achieved would have been to construct 2 "battle groups" comprised of an APC Squadron together with an infantry company. The other 2.5 Battalions would have been walking everywhere. What an effective solution...

It's a simple fact of modern warfare that land forces need mobility. It has been tested on exercises and proven that the now motorised 7 Brigade can move itself anywhere in Continental Australia, quicker than it could have previously using all the higher level transport assets of the ADF combined, (that includes the Hercules and Caribou fleets).

This inherent mobility is of immense value on the battlefield itself, given the maneuvre based doctrine of our forces and certainly cost effective given the scarce transport assets the ADF is provided with... It should be obvious that 7 Brigades ability to move itself free's up these assets for the use of other, perhaps higher priority units...

As to 1 Brigade, well all I can say is that 1 Brigade is the only formation in the Australian Army that even goes close to matching the combat power of other modern armies. To get rid of this would seriously emasculate our Army and leave it suitable for peace-keeping missions only, much like NZ. Even DIBB wasn't THAT radical. You're not Bob Brown, or a member of the Greens by any chance are you Sean?
 
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Aussie Digger

Guest
As to the Brigade, Battalion structure argument, well our current strategic guidance (White Paper 2000) is that the ADF is supposed to be able to provide a Brigade level formation and support elements for deployment on operations abroad whilst simultaneously being capable of deploying a Battalion group on opsin a separate location.

The ADF is also supposed to be capable of relieving those forces in situ and rotating other forces through to replace the initial force deployed. This requirement requires at least 2 Brigades for the Brigade level deployment and another brigade to support the Battalion level deployment.

I'd argue that the ADF is NOT capable of deploying these sorts of forces at present and this is precisely why Cosgrove is arguing for an additional 1-2000 troops spread throughout a number of additional units...
 

Supe

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
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Is Dibb a dirty word in ADF circles?

I reckon calls for extra troops would be heeded by Howard. If the news articles are anything to go by, they both belong to the mutual admiration society.
 

seantheaussie

New Member
Aussie Digger said:
As to the Brigade, Battalion structure argument, well our current strategic guidance (White Paper 2000) is that the ADF is supposed to be able to provide a Brigade level formation and support elements for deployment on operations abroad whilst simultaneously being capable of deploying a Battalion group on opsin a separate location.

The ADF is also supposed to be capable of relieving those forces in situ and rotating other forces through to replace the initial force deployed. This requirement requires at least 2 Brigades for the Brigade level deployment and another brigade to support the Battalion level deployment.

I'd argue that the ADF is NOT capable of deploying these sorts of forces at present and this is precisely why Cosgrove is arguing for an additional 1-2000 troops spread throughout a number of additional units...
Any deployment of 2 OR more battalions is going to be a joint deployment. I don't see the need for an army brigade HQ between the joint HQ & the battalions.
With a full Regimental deployment we could have lifted maybe half of 6 RAR in a single movement. 6 RAR being one of the 3 battalions that we had to support, (the others being 25/49 RQR and 9 RQR).
If one sixth armoured lift was unacceptable perhaps we should try one third OR one half OR two thirds, going all the way to 100% is extreme.
This inherent mobility is of immense value on the battlefield itself, given the maneuvre based doctrine of our forces and certainly cost effective given the scarce transport assets the ADF is provided with... It should be obvious that 7 Brigades ability to move itself free's up these assets for the use of other, perhaps higher priority units
What % APCs will be used most of the time? That is the % APCs we should have. It will mean units that have less armoured mobility but more units.
As to 1 Brigade, well all I can say is that 1 Brigade is the only formation in the Australian Army that even goes close to matching the combat power of other modern armies. To get rid of this would seriously emasculate our Army and leave it suitable for peace-keeping missions only, much like NZ. Even DIBB wasn't THAT radical. You're not Bob Brown, or a member of the Greens by any chance are you Sean?
I am fairly sure I didn't mention 1 brigade. I only associated the motorised & mechanised APCs. On second thought 5/7 does need 100% armoured mobility to punch through & mess up the enemies rear.Would any other country call 5/7 mechanised?
 
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Aussie Digger

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If a second mechanised battalion were to be created as has been mooted, I'd expect it would created by de-linking 5/7 RAR as was done with 2/4 RAR in the mid 90's.

Sean, you referred to disliking mechanised/motorised forces in your earlier post which is why I focussed on 1 Brigade and 7 Brigade as they respectively represent the Army's ONLY mechanised and motorised forces.

Brigade HQ's typically don't deploy overseas anyway. The deployable Joint Force HQ at Enoggera would effectively be the force HQ on any large scale deployments as Army deployments are known as Taskforces on ops and typically have elements cobbled together from various brigades. It was the HQ unit in Timor, which was the last "brigade" level deployment of the Army and the largest single deployment since WW2 with 3 Infantry battalions deployed at it's height.

The Al Muthana taskforce is another more recent example of "taskforces" deploying, though it is much smaller than the Timor deployment. It has an integral command unit, based on 2 Cav Regt HQ, probably supplemented by infantry commanders.

The Brigade and Divisional structure is planned for DOA operations. You must bear in mind that the structure of the Army is designed for large scale continental ops in defence of Australia, even if the army isn't equipped for this as such.

The Brigades in a large scale emergency would be assigned a TAOR (tactical area of operations) and even though widely dispersed, the individual battle groups would still require brigade level command of the respective forces. This would be required whether you call them brigades, taskforces, battle groups or whatever sounds pleasing to the ears...

I strongly disagree with the whole concept of Infantry battalions requiring external mobility support, other than air operations of course. The mobility of the infantry battalion should be created by it's own assets, whether they be motorised (ie: equipped with wheeled vehicles) or mechanised (equipped with tracked vehicles). The only infantry battalions Australia possesses that shouldn't be equipped with an integral motorised or mechanised capacity in my opinion are the rapidly deployable air mobile/parachute battalions of 3 Brigade.

We live in a Country with one of the largest land masses in the world and the only real mobility 95% of our infantry battalions possess is the inate ability of an individual soldier to walk places... It's ridiculous, but cost-effective of course...

The problem of providing greater lift for our Infantry Battalions is the cost. APC's are expensive to acquire and expensive to operate though they provide the greatest capability. IMV's such as the Bushmaster provide tremendous mobility, are relatively cheap compared to APC's, but don't provide the close combat capability that an APC or IFV does. Their relative cheap price and enormous range, plus reasonable armoured protection is the reason I believe that the majority of Army Brigades should be equipped with a Bushmaster type vehicle. Only a single Brigade (1 Brigade) should be equipped as a Mech brigade and only a single brigade (3 Brigade) equipped as an air mobile, light infantry brigade under our current funding climate.

The current Light Horse/Mounted Rifles and Cavalry units that exist are moving into the Armoured Recon field, as this was a glaring deficiency in the pre -ASLAV days of the army. 2 Cav Regt and 2/14 LHR have been designated as such already and equipped with ASLAV's and have demonstrated their capability in East Timor and more recently in Iraq.

1 Brigade is a Mechanised Brigade as it is "infantry centric". Mechanised Brigades typically contain 2 Mechanised infantry battalions (such as 5/7 RAR) and 1 Tank Regt. Armoured brigades are "Tank centric" and normally contain 2 infantry battalions and 2 Tank Regt's. These are the NATO standards which Australia nominally follows. The addition of an extra Mech Battalion into 1 Brigade plus supporting elements would bring it up to NATO strength. Despite John Howard's rhetoric, we still wouldn't possess an Armoured Brigade though.
 

seantheaussie

New Member
Aussie Digger said:
Brigade HQ's typically don't deploy overseas anyway. The deployable Joint Force HQ at Enoggera would effectively be the force HQ on any large scale deployments as Army deployments are known as Taskforces on ops and typically have elements cobbled together from various brigades. It was the HQ unit in Timor, which was the last "brigade" level deployment of the Army and the largest single deployment since WW2 with 3 Infantry battalions deployed at it's height.

The Al Muthana taskforce is another more recent example of "taskforces" deploying, though it is much smaller than the Timor deployment. It has an integral command unit, based on 2 Cav Regt HQ, probably supplemented by infantry commanders.

The Brigade and Divisional structure is planned for DOA operations. You must bear in mind that the structure of the Army is designed for large scale continental ops in defence of Australia, even if the army isn't equipped for this as such.

The Brigades in a large scale emergency would be assigned a TAOR (tactical area of operations) and even though widely dispersed, the individual battle groups would still require brigade level command of the respective forces. This would be required whether you call them brigades, taskforces, battle groups or whatever sounds pleasing to the ears...
Why must brigades be assigned TAOR rather than battalions? I also recall you arguing in other threads for the most frequent use being more important than DOA considerations.

Aussie Digger said:
I strongly disagree with the whole concept of Infantry battalions requiring external mobility support, other than air operations of course. The mobility of the infantry battalion should be created by it's own assets, whether they be motorised (ie: equipped with wheeled vehicles) or mechanised (equipped with tracked vehicles). The only infantry battalions Australia possesses that shouldn't be equipped with an integral motorised or mechanised capacity in my opinion are the rapidly deployable air mobile/parachute battalions of 3 Brigade.
Could you live with organic unarmoured mobility with supporting armoured mobility?
 
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Aussie Digger

Guest
I suppose, but what would be the point? Why purchase 2 separate vehicles to fulfill a similar role? Sure a Bushmaster has limited close combat capability when compared to APC's, but then they're not used in this role. They are something in between and APC and unarmoured light vehicle, but with armour protection approaching that of APC's...

I'd prefer a Bushmaster type capability for the majority of our army and additional armoured recon units in the mode of 2 Cav Regt and 2/14 LHR.
These can provide a lift capacity for infantry units in higher threat environments as evidenced in Iraq at present when required, but also provide a greater Cavalry capability which is a superb capability that Army would do well to develop.

These Regt's provide signficant offensive capability in their own right and this will continue with the addition of Javelin ATGW's into the troops and mooted capabilities such as 120mm self propelled mortars, which would be ASLAV based and probably attached to the Squadrons. They are also very capable of the traditional screening, surveillance and escort tasks

Battalions would be assigned to a particular area on ops, but do not provide the "mass" that would be required in any large scale DOA operations, hence the Brigade structure...
 

seantheaussie

New Member
Aussie Digger said:
I suppose, but what would be the point? Why purchase 2 separate vehicles to fulfill a similar role? Sure a Bushmaster has limited close combat capability when compared to APC's, but then they're not used in this role. They are something in between and APC and unarmoured light vehicle, but with armour protection approaching that of APC's...
Cost. Bushmasters do not approach the cost of unarmoured vehicles so with armoured lift for half the army & unarmoured for the rest you can afford a larger army.

Aussie Digger said:
Battalions would be assigned to a particular area on ops, but do not provide the "mass" that would be required in any large scale DOA operations, hence the Brigade structure...
Surely the deployable Joint Force HQ could coordinate the battalions against a beachead.
 
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Aussie Digger

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seantheaussie said:
Cost. Bushmasters do not approach the cost of unarmoured vehicles so with armoured lift for half the army & unarmoured for the rest you can afford a larger army.


Surely the deployable Joint Force HQ could coordinate the battalions against a beachead.
Yes, but Bushmaster provides greater capability than unarmoured units, and a larger army would still cost more through personnel costs. The Government is procrastinating over the cost of a single extra Battalion at present, to bring the army up to it's White Paper authorised strength of 6 regular battalion groups.

I personally hate the idea of having a military force which is unusable. Reserve units which are not equipped with the capabilities they'll need in war are next to useless in my opinion. I'd rather have a smaller force that is better equipped and trained that I can use right now, than a larger one that is ill-equipped. If it came to all out war, the reserve units would have to be re-equipped and extensively trained before they were of any use.

The need to acquire the necessary equipment will take time for it to be manufactured no matter how much money is thrown at it. I'd rather have forces that can be used now, rather than forces that are "fitted for but not with" like the ANZAC ships...

The DJFHQ is designed to command an Australian Force on ops, ie: a task force sized group. Not an Australian force in defence of Australia, hence the division/brigade structure of the army.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Aussie Digger said:
I personally hate the idea of having a military force which is unusable. Reserve units which are not equipped with the capabilities they'll need in war are next to useless in my opinion.
Interestingly enough, this what the US has determined through some of it's BRAC (??) discussion papers.

Reserves that don't mirror/reflect main forces in training, fitout and capability are invariably a burden when sent into a conflict zone. There is insufficient lead in time to train, and when they are sent in they're struggling to adapt at some levels.

Trg in Perenties/Bushies doesn't equate to training in M113's or ASLAVs
 

seantheaussie

New Member
Aussie Digger said:
Yes, but Bushmaster provides greater capability than unarmoured units, and a larger army would still cost more through personnel costs. The Government is procrastinating over the cost of a single extra Battalion at present, to bring the army up to it's White Paper authorised strength of 6 regular battalion groups.
Where would you prefer to spend money? Armoured mobility for entire army OR half armoured mobility half unarmoured mobility of a larger army

Aussie Digger said:
I personally hate the idea of having a military force which is unusable. Reserve units which are not equipped with the capabilities they'll need in war are next to useless in my opinion. I'd rather have a smaller force that is better equipped and trained that I can use right now, than a larger one that is ill-equipped. If it came to all out war, the reserve units would have to be re-equipped and extensively trained before they were of any use.
Totally aqree
Aussie Digger said:
The DJFHQ is designed to command an Australian Force on ops, ie: a task force sized group. Not an Australian force in defence of Australia, hence the division/brigade structure of the army.
How many battalions would have to be massed? Could JFHQ command these? I assume many battalions would remain dispersed & could safely remain under divisional control.
 
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Aussie Digger

Guest
seantheaussie said:
Where would you prefer to spend money? Armoured mobility for entire army OR half armoured mobility half unarmoured mobility of a larger army

Totally aqree

How many battalions would have to be massed? Could JFHQ command these? I assume many battalions would remain dispersed & could safely remain under divisional control.
I think I answered that in my last post. I'd prefer a motorised infantry based Army utilising a Bushmaster style vehicle for the majority of the maneuvre elements. I'd have one (or 2 in more financially viable times) air mobile based brigade, 1x (again or 2) mechanised brigades and one Special Operations organisation.

The way I think the Army should be structured is not as an Army of "Two's" as General LEAHY would like, but rather as an army of "Sixes". 6 "High-readiness" brigades, 6 regular infantry battalions and 6 lower readiness 'independant' battalion groups.

The "higher readiness" brigades would then comprise, 1x Mech Brigade designed and equipped for higher intensity warfare, 1x air mobile Brigade structured as a light infantry force for rapid deployment and 4x motorised brigades designed for medium intensity warfare but with a high degree of "self-mobility". This structure would provide for capabilities in every aspect of warfare, both expeditionary and for DOA, and allow for the rotation of (admittedly) slightly differing (in equipment) forces.

The current low readiness reserve Brigades (of which there are 10) should be downsized into "independant" battalions groups (ie: an infantry battalion plus supporting arms including: 1x Arty Bty, 1x Arm Recon Sqn, 1x Combat Eng Sqn, plus 1x combat support Sqn, comprising Sigs, Transport, MP's, medical, dental, logistics etc) and comprise approx 1/3rd of a current brigade.

I think 6 of these groups should be formed to provide as the core of an expansion base for our army should a large scale war ever appear on the horizon. They should also be responsible for "rapid deployment" tasks in support of "military aid to civilian power" operations, such as major event security, large scale bomb search tasks (such as was done for the Sydney Olympics) etc and also provide the low level Army response for Counter-terrorism tasks, ie: cordons etc. They should also be the "military link" to the community that the General reserve fills now.

As to the DJFHQ, it would depend upon the nature of the threat. If a large scale invasion of Australia was a threat, the entire army would come under Divisional or perhaps Corps control and the DFJHQ probaby would be absorbed into whatever new HQ formation was created for the crisis.

If a minor threat to Australia territory was a problem, such as special force insertions etc, a single brigade might only be deployed to deal with the problem, whilst the others were on standby. Either way, I think the DJFHQ would be incorporated into a new formation headed almost directly by the ADF HQ if DOA operations were likely to be conducted.

On a purely strategic level though, the DJFHQ was purely created to provide command for deployed forces. It has AFAIK, no direct involvement in DOA strategies...
 

nz enthusiast

New Member
Looks like Australia is in the long list of countries with recruitment problems. Jason kiwi where did you get your 3000 from, or are you just coming up with that from the top of your head.
 
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Aussie Digger

Guest
I really don't think the ADF DOES have a recritig problem, other than Government reluctance to fund positions for new recruits... The ADF actually increased in strength overall by 254 permanent positions and 566 reserve positions in 2003-2004, ( as per ADF annual report 2003-04 found here:http://www.defence.gov.au/budget/03-04/dar/00_04_contents.htm ).

Whilst that is fairly small overall it shows that recruiting is still outpacing attritrion amongst the ranks. These are improvement over earlier years, yet compare rather poorly to the number of applications during 2003/4 for ADF positions being 83,968 and the number of formal applications made: 15,957...

The total number of people recruited in 2003/4 was around 4000 AND retention of serving personnel was also improved. Given that only 4000 were chosen out of over 15,000 applications, apparently only 25% of persons who make a FULL application,(and who are also presumably being well informed about the entry requirements) are suitable for employment within the ADF...

Or it COULD mean (and does in MY book) mean that the Government isn't that serious about filling in the gaps in the ADF, people wise...
 
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