415 BMP-3 and 35-50 BMP-3F for GREECE

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The Governmental National Defence Council (GNDC - KYSEA) decided among onters to procure 415 BMP-3 Russian infantry fighting vehicles and additional 35-50 BMP-3F (the amphibious version)

:D

(in Greek)
http://www.defencenet.gr/defence/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3266&Itemid=40
Very interesting Petros - could you elaborate a little more on this purchase, was there a competition from other countries, what was the deciding factor into this purchase agreement. please give us the Greek perspective on this new agreement.:)
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Not that long ago it looked like Greece was close to purchasing surplus Marders, maybe with a new turret, from Germany.
But after long time of maybe and maybe not the deal was cancelled.


While the BMP-3 is an interesting IFV I never felt comfortable with being dependent on Russia for spares if one is a NATO member.
On the other hand Greece has choosen Russian equipment before as well as the Greek part of Cyprus...
Is Greece going to get its own prodcution facilities?

And I never believed the protection levels claimed by some members here but we have a long thread about it somewhere in the depth of the froum.
The amphibious version is defenitely nice for Greece as there are very few competitors on the modern IFV market which come with amphibious capabilities.
 

Chrom

New Member
Not that long ago it looked like Greece was close to purchasing surplus Marders, maybe with a new turret, from Germany.
But after long time of maybe and maybe not the deal was cancelled.


While the BMP-3 is an interesting IFV I never felt comfortable with being dependent on Russia for spares if one is a NATO member.
I suspect Greece choose Russia EXACTLY becouse Russia is not a NATO member to avoid pressure with Cyprus.
 

dk706

New Member
It seems that the decision was taken directly from the Prime Minister Costas Karamanlis for both political and operational reasons. Greece will take part in the production with about 25-30% and the budget allocated for the program is 1.7 billion euros.

Greece has a history of buying weapons from Russia and especially now that the good relations between the two countries are at their peek the deal was expected. Moreover Greek defence press has been extremely supportive of the BMP-3 choice as the most cost effective solution.
After all despite a lower protection level than other IFVs like Puma or CV90 the BMP-3 boost the heaviest armament and the lowest cost and also an amphibious capability that can give an extreme tactical advantage in the Aegean archipelagos and some Greek defence analysts claimed that with such a capability even a dynamic defence model between the islands is possible.

In general I would say that it was a very welcomed choice for the Greek public.
 

dk706

New Member
Correction the cost of the program is 1.2 billion euros. From what i have read though the total need of the greek army for IFVs was at about 500 + 50 amphibious for the marine core I wonder whether there will be an option for some additional in the deal. Does anyone know about that?
 

Chrom

New Member
1.2b seems too high for less than 500 BMP-3 in basic form. So several expencive goodies like good TI and possible ERA are expected.
 

fylr71

New Member
Good choice by the Greeks BMP 3 also serves with other western allies including Cyprus, South Korea, and Kuwait. Also, newly built BMP-3 are almost certainly superior to second hand Marders.
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Not that long ago it looked like Greece was close to purchasing surplus Marders, maybe with a new turret, from Germany.
But after long time of maybe and maybe not the deal was cancelled.


While the BMP-3 is an interesting IFV I never felt comfortable with being dependent on Russia for spares if one is a NATO member.
On the other hand Greece has choosen Russian equipment before as well as the Greek part of Cyprus...
Is Greece going to get its own prodcution facilities?

And I never believed the protection levels claimed by some members here but we have a long thread about it somewhere in the depth of the froum.
The amphibious version is defenitely nice for Greece as there are very few competitors on the modern IFV market which come with amphibious capabilities.
What type of upgraded turret were they looking at possibly placing on the Marders, and does any body know what the show stopper was preventing them from purchasing them.
 

dk706

New Member
yes indeed it seems a much better deal than the upgraded used marder 1a5 that were under consideration even at 1.2 billion. The marder with the upgrades that were proposed was to cost 3.5million per IFV while the BMP costs average 2.9 million and although there are no official information yet on he equipment that it will have it is expected that it will include all the latest development like ERA western thermal sights and weapons control the greek Iniohos command system and the wisspnet radios.
 

Chrom

New Member
What type of upgraded turret were they looking at possibly placing on the Marders, and does any body know what the show stopper was preventing them from purchasing them.
Most probably cost. While second-hand Marders are cheap, upgrading them is not. I suspect Greek recived new BMP-3 for same price...
 

dk706

New Member
This is the update that was proposed for the marder:
New E4 turret

The MARDER AIFV is equipped with a 2-manturret, which houses the vehicle's main armament: an MK 30-2 automatic cannon from Rheinmetall Waffe Munition GmbH. Of the various 30 mm x 173 automatic cannons on the market today, the MK 30-2 has the highest rate of fire (nominal 700 rounds per minute). Thus, unlike other 30 mm cannons, the MK 30-2 – in conjunction with contemporary fire control technology and turret systems – can be used in an air defence role against helicopters. The MK 30-2 meets the full range of modern performance and safety criteria. Unlike chain guns, the MK 30-2 has a built-in first round response capability due to the double feeder, and can be fired in emergency mode. With a maximum range of 3,000 metres, the MK 30-2 is extremely effective against land, air and sea targets.

Made by Rheinmetall Defence Electronics GmbH, the leader of the program in Greece, the SEOSS fire control system likewise plays an important part in the new E4 turret. SEOSS is a compact, state-of-the-art digital fire control system consisting of a stabilized panoramic sensor head with a thermal imaging sight, CCD camera and a laser rangefinder. SEOSS uses an independent line of sight inertially stabilized in two axes. The system features high-precision fire control computation that takes into account the type of ammunition, cant angles, the altitude of targets as well as environmental conditions, target movement and coincidence. SEOSS has been tested and approved by the Hellenic Army in the framework of the KENTAURUS vehicle.





The electro-optical sensor unit and the weapon stabilisation system are controlled by the fire control electronics, which calculate the superelevation and lead angle resulting from the ballistic parameters.

Equipped with the C3I command and control system INIOCHOS from Rheinmetall Defence Electronics, the MARDER will be fully capable of cooperating on the battlefield with the LEOPARD 2 Hellenic MBT. Key elements of this highly advanced C3I system are the tactical terminal, command computer, mission data terminal and driver's indication unit. INIOCHOS provides a continuous detailed display of tactical situations, commands, messages and alarms, which are transmitted quickly and without error. Digitized terrain maps are displayed on high-resolution colour screens.


Ammunition

The ammunition for the AIFV MARDER is also proposed by Rheinmetall DeTec AG. The APFSDS-T (Armour Piercing Fin Stabilized Discarding Sabot) belongs to a new generation of armour-piercing sub-calibre ammunition capable of defeating monobloc and spaced armour targets. Based on tried-and-tested Oerlikon Contraves sub-calibre technology, the APFSDS-T ammunition suffers from none of the problems associated with the conventional slipping rotating band design relating to the influence of barrel wear and adverse atmospheric conditions. APFSDS-T ammunition can be employed – together with FAPDS-T (frangible) ammunition – to provide the MARDER with a powerful self-defence capability against both ground and air-to-ground attacks.

Contact

Rheinmetall AG
Corporate Sector Defence
Press and Information
Oliver Hoffmann
Rheinmetall Platz 1
40476 Düsseldorf
Germany
Phone: +49 211 473-4748
Fax: +49 211 473-4157

this is from rheinmetall but i cant post urls
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Most probably cost. While second-hand Marders are cheap, upgrading them is not. I suspect Greek recived new BMP-3 for same price...
It will be most interesting to see what type of upgrades they come with, this also may get Cyprus a chance to upgrade theirs at a lower cost.
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
E4 turret link on Rheinmetall site here.

Rheinmetall is also trying (tried?) to pitch this for the UK FRES IFV.

The Marder with E4 turret is nothing new; Kuka already tried that in the 90s as a potential upgrade path for the German Army ("M12 IFV"), before Rheinmetall swallowed Kuka. The offer for Greece was pretty much a M12, which was also a contender in the Swiss "IFV 2000" program.

Picture of M12 on this Franco-Suisse site.
Thanks for sharing - I like the part on ballistic protection, (at customers request):D
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
This is the update that was proposed for the marder:
New E4 turret

The MARDER AIFV is equipped with a 2-manturret, which houses the vehicle's main armament: an MK 30-2 automatic cannon from Rheinmetall Waffe Munition GmbH. Of the various 30 mm x 173 automatic cannons on the market today, the MK 30-2 has the highest rate of fire (nominal 700 rounds per minute). Thus, unlike other 30 mm cannons, the MK 30-2 – in conjunction with contemporary fire control technology and turret systems – can be used in an air defence role against helicopters. The MK 30-2 meets the full range of modern performance and safety criteria. Unlike chain guns, the MK 30-2 has a built-in first round response capability due to the double feeder, and can be fired in emergency mode. With a maximum range of 3,000 metres, the MK 30-2 is extremely effective against land, air and sea targets.

Made by Rheinmetall Defence Electronics GmbH, the leader of the program in Greece, the SEOSS fire control system likewise plays an important part in the new E4 turret. SEOSS is a compact, state-of-the-art digital fire control system consisting of a stabilized panoramic sensor head with a thermal imaging sight, CCD camera and a laser rangefinder. SEOSS uses an independent line of sight inertially stabilized in two axes. The system features high-precision fire control computation that takes into account the type of ammunition, cant angles, the altitude of targets as well as environmental conditions, target movement and coincidence. SEOSS has been tested and approved by the Hellenic Army in the framework of the KENTAURUS vehicle.





The electro-optical sensor unit and the weapon stabilisation system are controlled by the fire control electronics, which calculate the superelevation and lead angle resulting from the ballistic parameters.

Equipped with the C3I command and control system INIOCHOS from Rheinmetall Defence Electronics, the MARDER will be fully capable of cooperating on the battlefield with the LEOPARD 2 Hellenic MBT. Key elements of this highly advanced C3I system are the tactical terminal, command computer, mission data terminal and driver's indication unit. INIOCHOS provides a continuous detailed display of tactical situations, commands, messages and alarms, which are transmitted quickly and without error. Digitized terrain maps are displayed on high-resolution colour screens.


Ammunition

The ammunition for the AIFV MARDER is also proposed by Rheinmetall DeTec AG. The APFSDS-T (Armour Piercing Fin Stabilized Discarding Sabot) belongs to a new generation of armour-piercing sub-calibre ammunition capable of defeating monobloc and spaced armour targets. Based on tried-and-tested Oerlikon Contraves sub-calibre technology, the APFSDS-T ammunition suffers from none of the problems associated with the conventional slipping rotating band design relating to the influence of barrel wear and adverse atmospheric conditions. APFSDS-T ammunition can be employed – together with FAPDS-T (frangible) ammunition – to provide the MARDER with a powerful self-defence capability against both ground and air-to-ground attacks.

Contact

Rheinmetall AG
Corporate Sector Defence
Press and Information
Oliver Hoffmann
Rheinmetall Platz 1
40476 Düsseldorf
Germany
Phone: +49 211 473-4748
Fax: +49 211 473-4157

this is from rheinmetall but i cant post urls
Thanks for sharing and commenting on this subject, very informative.:)
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Greece already has lots of NATO equipment in service so buying some more wouldn't make a difference.

As I said I know that Greece also has some Russian equipment in service but there I thought that it isn't a good idea, too.
As a NATO country one should buy not so much Russian equipment. I don't want to offend anybody but I see it purely out of a strategic view.

I also think that especially the amphibious version will serve Greece a lot.

In the end one gets, as often, a lot bang for the buck if one buys russian equipment especially when upgrading it withh state of the art thermals, etc.
 

Petros

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #18
Greece already has lots of NATO equipment in service so buying some more wouldn't make a difference.

As I said I know that Greece also has some Russian equipment in service but there I thought that it isn't a good idea, too.
As a NATO country one should buy not so much Russian equipment. I don't want to offend anybody but I see it purely out of a strategic view.
[...]
It is not a rare strategy any more. For example recently France and Germany are leaning towards Mi-26T acquisition to meet their requirement for a heavy transport helicopter.

Furthermore you must remember that the main (and only) potential enemy of Greece is Turkey (surely not Russia...). USA denies frequently to share technologies and export systems to Greece [not, only, even to the closest Nato allies (F-22, F-35, JAASM, even AIM-9X)]! I think the turn to alternatives is matter of course...

Either way Greece plans to integrate local Electronics and Communications systems (NATO specs) as much as possible. The hole programme has at least a decade planning so Greek and propably other nationality "western" intustries are going to envolve. S-300 and TOR M1 is an example of advanced systems that Greece managed to integrate (...) with the existing (Nato specs) frame.
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
It is not a rare strategy any more. For example recently France and Germany are leaning towards Mi-26T acquisition to meet their requirement for a heavy transport helicopter.
Not acquisition, only technology transfer for use in Eurocopters own HTH program.
 

Petros

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #20
Not acquisition, only technology transfer for use in Eurocopters own HTH program.


from defense-aerospace

PARIS --- France and Germany are leaning towards an off-the-shelf acquisition to meet their requirement for a heavy transport helicopter, and according to present plans could award a production contract by 2012 for initial deliveries in 2017.

The two countries on June 20 signed an agreement in which they said they would “work in common to harmonise their requirements for operational and tactical airlift and air manoeuvrability, in order to fill the gap beyond the capabilities provided by the NH90” and the future Airbus A400M fixed-wing aircraft. The project is known as Helicoptère de Transport Lourd (HTL) in France and Future Transport Helicopter (FTH) in Germany.

“It is not obvious that we will have to develop a new helicopter: we hope to adapt what is available on the market,” François Mestre, the official in charge of the program at the French defense procurement agency, DGA, told defense-aerospace.com. The looming defense spending crunch in France also argues for off-the-shelf solutions rather than expensive development programs.

Three helicopters are being evaluated in the initial phase: the Boeing CH-47F Chinook, the Sikorsky CH-53K project and the Mil Mi-26T. The latter will be evaluated by the French Army in November, Mestre said, under an agreement signed in December with Rosoboronexport, the Russian arms export agency.

“We anticipate finalizing a common requirement by 2009 followed by a two-year risk reduction phase, with an additional year to complete contract specifications,” he said. A procurement contract could be signed in 2012 with initial deliveries to follow in 2017. “This is a very relaxed schedule because we want to take the time to build a durable program,” Mestre said.

It also would leave ample time to modify the basic Mi-26T design to European requirements. It has a five-man crew, while France wants three at most, and both its avionics and engines are outdated. It also does not have a Western certification. Development costs for a new version of a new Mi-26T with new engine and avionics would be considerable, but could be shared with Russia which will have to upgrade the Mi-26T in any case.

It also would leave ample time to modify the basic Mi-26T design to European requirements. It has a five-man crew, while France wants three at most, and both its avionics and engines are outdated. It also does not have a Western certification. Development costs for a new version of a new Mi-26T with new engine and avionics would be considerable, but could be shared with Russia which will have to upgrade the Mi-26T in any case.

The CH-47F was declared combat-ready by the US Army in August, so it is probably too late to incorporate any modifications needed by France and Germany. The CH-53K currently has no European partner since Eurocopter decided last year that it would not participate, while the Mi-26T offers considerable growth potential and, perhaps most interestingly, a cost-effective solution providing France and Germany with a very capable helicopter whose technology they would acquire.

Germany has taken the lead in the FTH project, but both it and France hope to involve the European Defence Agency (EDA) so as to attract additional participants, such as Poland, Finland, Sweden and smaller EDA members. However, European requirements are very diverse, and it is not clear a single design would be suitable for all, sources say.

The EDA issued a statement on June 21 saying it “warmly welcomes the announcement of a Franco-German joint effort for a common project on a Future Transport Helicopter capability in the 2020 timeframe….The European Defence Agency has always encouraged Member States to converge their thinking about future needs and to collaborate closely on such ventures at an early stage, with widest possible participation,” said outgoing EDA Chief Executive Nick Witney.

However, European industry sources say there is little chance that the program will find many interested partners as the larger European countries have already committed to other projects to meet their requirements. An executive of Italy’s AgustaWestland noted that the Italian Army has decided to buy the CH-47F Chinook, while Britain has just invested £250 million to buy six additional EH-101s and to upgrade six older CH-47s.

“The diversification in tactical mobility missions, as well as lessons learned from recent operations, confirmed the need to provide armed forces with efficient and highly capable transport helicopters for personnel, light armoured vehicles and cargo. Based on its flexibility, this capability will also address personnel evacuation or emergency logistics transport, within a wide range of operational, geographical and meteorological conditions,” according to a joint French-German statement issued June 20.

In terms of operational requirements, France wants the new helicopter to be able to transport two VBL light armored vehicles and, possibly, a VAB 13-tonne vehicle as slung cargo. It wants to be able to fly two tactical missions of up to 600 km each without refueling, Mestre said, which implies a maximum range of 1,000-1,500 km. In-flight refueling is a possibility, but is not essential.
I think it is clear that the main idea is the acquisition of Mi-26T with minor or medium modifications in order to meet European requirements.
 
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