Turkey to purchase Apache helicopters as a stopgap solution

Atilla [TR]

New Member
What just 10! They already have a low number for the T-129. They should at least buy something like 20 units. And they should buy 80 T-129's. They are very useful.
 

Stimpy75

New Member
doesn´t boeing have to pay a fee for the late delivery of the 4 Boeing 737 AWACS,so is there a possibility,that boeing will pay for them?:D

Invalid question for the thread. If you want to discuss the 737 AWACS issue open up a new thread. If you do open a new thread give brief information on the issue in your 1st post so members can know what they are suppose to discuss.

Thank You!

- SABRE
 
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SABRE

Super Moderator
Verified Defense Pro
Hmm ... interesting.

Not to derail the topic & discussion but somewhere in between Pakistan & Turkey had decided to have joint evaluation & purchase & both were leaning towards A/T-129. Now Turkey seems to be tilting towards Apache (thats my belief) & Pakistan (according to rumors) is evaluating Mi-25 Hind.
 

eliaslar

New Member
The most interesting, if these news are true, is that Turkey after 2012 will have probably 3 types of attack helicopters Cobra's, Apache's and T-129.
Isn't this a nightmare for the logistics?
 

Stimpy75

New Member
i just wanted to point out, that Boeing who have been late for over 2 years for the delivery/induction of the 737 AWACS, have to pay over 200 million $ as a penalty,so instead of paying the bill,they give us the choppers:confused: is there the possibility?
and again Turkey wanted used AH-1W,but US denied them,because they need themselves.
the exact value of the bill i will have to look up.

In that case ... Well you have to clear up in what you are saying.
- SABRE

jep,you are right,my fault:D
 
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jedigman

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #7
Hmm ... interesting.

Not to derail the topic & discussion but somewhere in between Pakistan & Turkey had decided to have joint evaluation & purchase & both were leaning towards A/T-129. Now Turkey seems to be tilting towards Apache (thats my belief) & Pakistan (according to rumors) is evaluating Mi-25 Hind.
I don't think so, Turkey is dead set on having the T-129.
The Apaches like i said is stopgap solution until the T-129 rolls out around 2012.

Heres some info regarding the T-129

There were some arguments about the numbers of T-129 that will be produced. To avoid confusion, I'm posting some info about this. From S&H magazine issue no:122

The agreement is to produce 51 choppers + 40 optional.

The 1st one of the 51 will be kept by the Ministry of Defence and used as a test-bed for systems development.

The remanining 50 will be delivered to the Army. The optional 40 more will be produced if necessary.

The 50 choppers will be in 2 different configurations, TUC-1 and TUC-2 (TUC: Turkish Configuration)

30 out of 50 will be TUC-1, and the following 20 will be TUC-2.

T-129 TUC-1 will have:

- Indigenous mission computer
- Indigenous EW and countermeasures
- AselFLIR-300
- Foreign helmet system (either Elbit or Thales)
- Foreign missile (either HellfireII or Spike ER)

T-129 TUC-2 will have:

- Indigenous mission computer
- Indigenous EW and countermeasures
- AselFLIR-300
- Aselsan AVCI helmet system
- Roketsan UMTAS missile

The first batch of 30 TUC-1 helicopters will use foreign helmet system and missiles so that they don't have to wait for the development of the indigenous systems.
 

jedigman

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #8
The most interesting, if these news are true, is that Turkey after 2012 will have probably 3 types of attack helicopters Cobra's, Apache's and T-129.
Isn't this a nightmare for the logistics?
The cobra's will be modified to house the Indigenous Mission Computer, that's for certain. And maybe the Apaches will get the same treatment. So that part of thee logistics would be taken care of. As for repairs and such, I'd agree there will be a logistical problem for that, but nothing money cant overcome.
 

eliaslar

New Member
With the term logistics i don't mean only the computer of the helicopter, a helicopter and generally every machine is made from thousands of smaller and bigger parts and each one has a different part in the logistic's system. I don't think that Apache shares the same parts with Cobra and even more T-129 don't share the same parts with the other helicopters.

It's not even a matter of money only, money is only the mean to buy the equipment, there is a whole system of storage and management behind everything in service and more systems in service means more complexity. that's the nightmare i refer to.

Also about what you said of "Apaches will get the same treatment", meaning that they will share some components of T-129 in them, that means that this will need some extra time and money for such things to be implemented in the Apache. So if Turkey buys them now, and if we look in Greek Army's example, i don't think that the first will be delivered before 2011. The Greek example shows us that Greek Army signed a contract for 12 helicopters in 2004 if i remember well and the helicopters were delivered in 2007, that's 3 years later without lots of changes in the configuration of the helicopters.

I am also wondering what might happen with those helicopters after T-129 come into service, will Turkey return them to Boeing? :)

To tell you the truth i don't think it's possible to see Apache's in Turkish service.
 

flyturkish

New Member
Well there is the Pilot training and engineers it will be a challenge but it will work to integrate the aircraft into the logistic network , We need more gunships fast so if Boeing can provide them I do not see any problems . About the Turkish mission computer indigenous systems where the point that brought down the King cobra deal since the US demanded all information about any Turkish system used for example Mission Computer and all Turkish avionics within the King Cobra , So it will be a off the shelf purchase .
 

jedigman

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #11
With the term logistics i don't mean only the computer of the helicopter, a helicopter and generally every machine is made from thousands of smaller and bigger parts and each one has a different part in the logistic's system. I don't think that Apache shares the same parts with Cobra and even more T-129 don't share the same parts with the other helicopters.

It's not even a matter of money only, money is only the mean to buy the equipment, there is a whole system of storage and management behind everything in service and more systems in service means more complexity. that's the nightmare i refer to.

Also about what you said of "Apaches will get the same treatment", meaning that they will share some components of T-129 in them, that means that this will need some extra time and money for such things to be implemented in the Apache. So if Turkey buys them now, and if we look in Greek Army's example, i don't think that the first will be delivered before 2011. The Greek example shows us that Greek Army signed a contract for 12 helicopters in 2004 if i remember well and the helicopters were delivered in 2007, that's 3 years later without lots of changes in the configuration of the helicopters.

I am also wondering what might happen with those helicopters after T-129 come into service, will Turkey return them to Boeing? :)

To tell you the truth i don't think it's possible to see Apache's in Turkish service.
"maybe the Apaches will get the same treatment" Please if your going to quote me do it properly.

Turkey is negotiating with the American government and not Boeing the Apaches will most probably be second hand a temporary solution if you will.

We already have AH-1, UH-1, AB-212, AS-532, S-70, Mi-17, a few AH-64 won't do any harm. :)
 
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Yasin20

New Member

flyturkish

New Member
The Turkish Armed Forces have 32 used AH-1P/S witch will be updated to the AH-1F standards , How ever these are single engine aircraft's the fight takes place at high altitude in the mountain's . In this case there is only one helicopter witch is capable of operating to its full capability's the AH-1 Super Cobra the Turkish Armed Forces operates only 9 AH-1W upgrade is pending , Those 9 AH-1 are clearly not enough ! and as far as I know there are no new aircraft's available new or used as a Turkish request has been rejected by the US the fact that all AH-1 Super Cobras are been used by the Marines !. But I am sure Turkey would have brought aircraft's that would have been available for sale/export as they where used or new !. It clearly shows the need for Helicopter Gunships in the Turkish Armed Forces , And further more the AH-64 Apache is the only option until the T 129 arrives !.
 
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