Romanian Air Force - Present and Future

Burner

New Member
As a young NATO member, Romania has to increase the combat capability of it's air force and put to sleep some of the old birds it has in service during the next years.
The current OrBat of the RoAF looks like this:

  • Airbase 71 Câmpia Turzii
711st Fighter Sq. (MiG-21 Lancer A/B)
712nd Fighter Sq. (MiG-21 Lancer C/B)
713th Helicopter Sq. (IAR-330L Puma)

  • Airbase 86 Feteşti
861st Fighter Sq. (MiG-21 Lancer C/B)
862nd Fighter Sq. (MiG-21 Lancer A/B)

  • Airlift Base 90 "Gheorghe Bănciulescu" - Otopeni airport, near Bucharest
901st Strategic Airlift Sq. (C-130B/H Hercules)
902nd Operational Airlift and Photo Sq. (An-24RT, An-26, An-30)
903rd Helicopter Airlift Sq. (IAR-330L Puma)
904th Attack Helicopter Sq. (IAR-330 Puma SOCAT)
905th Attack Helicopter Sq. (IAR-330 Puma SOCAT)

  • Airbase 95 Bacău
951st Fighter Sq. (MiG-21 Lancer A/B/C)
952nd Helicopter Sq. (IAR-330L Puma)
205th Training Sq. (MiG-21 Lancer A/B)

  • Airbase 20 Boboc
The Air Force Application School "Aurel Vlaicu" (S.A.p.F.A.)
201-205 Training Squadrons (Yak-52, An-2, L-29, L-39ZA, IAR-99 Standard, IAR-99 Şoim, IAR-316B Alouette)


As you can see there's a mix of indiginous (IAR-99) and Czechoslovak built trainers (L-29, L-39), built under license from France helos (IAR-330L, IAR-316B), upgraded helios(Puma SOCAT) and upgraded fighter/attack aircraft (Lancer) along with a mixed fleet for airlift and recon. The MiG-21 will be taken out of service by 2011, and the first replacement aircraft should arrive in 2007. Oficially, the models considered for the replacement of the old MiGs are used F-16s, from de Israeli Air Force, aircraft that will undergo some upgrading by Elbit and Aerostar, just like the Lancer, the F/A-18... they were not specific as to what version or if it would be new or second-hand and new JAS-39 Gripens. As I said, this is oficially, but in reality, second-hand F-16 from IAF are almost certain.
Many people, especially those who don't really know much about military aviation, say that used F-16s are a bad deal, they would prefer some brand-new F-16s, maybe even some Block 60 jets or F/A-18E/Fs... I agree with them those would be really nice and a better option compared to some IAF second-hand Falcons, maybe only A/Bs. Problem is... if you want top fighters, you need money, lots of money, and this is what the Romanian Ministry of Defence (MApN) doesn't have at this moment. For the price of a few F-16E/Fs or Gripens we could get about 40 used F-16 from IAF. With the lack of money in mind, I say that this is a good deal, these used F-16. What do you think, and apart from this Falcon deal, how do you see the future of RoAF?
 
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RA1911

Member
I'm pretty sure the Gripen will be agressively marketed for the Romanian Air Force, and as you said it will probably be the main contender to used F-16s
I don't see an upgraded RoAF with the same number of sqd's with "new" aircrafts though, be it with F-16s or Gripens.
 

contedicavour

New Member
Suggestions based on Italian experience...

I hope that your government will make the right choice, i.e. a fighter with a long enough life left, in sufficient quantities, and without the local industry pushing for weird deals...
In Italy we suffered a lot to replace the F-104s (even if it was a locally built '80s vintage "S" version with ASA update including BVR missiles) with a stop-gap aircraft while waiting for the EFA Typhoon (the first 15 are at last operational...).
Firstly, our industry imposed to the government ever weirder deals to further update the 80 or so remaining obsolete F104. Next, the government leased 24 Tornado-ADV from the Royal Air Force - nice birds, but better suited for long-range air patrols over the North Sea than scrambles over the Adriatic Sea .... When the government realized the mistake, there we go with 34 F-16 ADF while sending back the Tornado ADVs.
In the 90s we still had 6 operational fighter squadrons, now we are down to 3, although the Typhoon should allow to have 4 by 2010.

Good luck in Romania... ;)

cheers
 

RA1911

Member
My personal favourite would be some sqds of NATO Gripens. "Cheap" to maintain, Hungary already got them, and they have a long service life. I'm pretty sure the Gripen consortium will be very willing to give good deals for the local industry.
 

contedicavour

New Member
RA1911 said:
My personal favourite would be some sqds of NATO Gripens. "Cheap" to maintain, Hungary already got them, and they have a long service life. I'm pretty sure the Gripen consortium will be very willing to give good deals for the local industry.
Why not , Gripens are a good deal. But all the Hungarians or the South-Africans can afford are a dozen each. I would prefer fielding 50 or so second-hand F16-ADF (the AMRAAM capable version) than a dozen Gripens :D

cheers
 

Burner

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #6
It's good that Italy finally got rid of those F-104s. It may have been upgraded for BVR, but in the case of a dogfight, it wouldn't have stood a chance.:fly
What do you think of the Lancer? Personally, I think it was a good decision modernizing them considering that in 1992, the year the programme was initiated, RoAF was in a very hard period and in severe money shortage. By upgrading the MiGs, they were able to put a whole new, NATO-compatible weapons platform in service by '96. 110 aircraft were upgraded for $500 million. By comparison, Romania could have bought for $500 million about 25 F-16C/Ds.

One issue where RoAF is looking good is the trainer aircraft. With 4 upgraded IAR-99C in service (Lot I) and another 8 (of 12) due to be delivered by 2008 (Lot II), things are looking good. I hope there will be a Lot III, too. :)

The Gripen is a good aircraft, but I'm afraid that we can not buy more than a squadron (at most) , and we really need a bigger number than that. :)
It's ashame that the MIG-29 was put out of service, cause the Sniper programme was really good, and 16 Snipers plus a squadron or two of Gripens would have been more than ok for some years, till MApN would get more money.

LATER EDIT:
Heh, talking about the wolf... the first Şoim of the 8 aircraft Lot II is ready to be delivered to the RoAF, slightly ahead of schedule (by one month). :)
Avioane Craiova and Elbit Systems Announce the Rollout of IAR-99 Training Aircraft for the Romanian Air Force


(Source: Elbit Systems Ltd.; issued April 27, 2006)


HAIFA, Israel --- Elbit Systems Ltd. and Avioane Craiova yesterday held the rollout ceremony of the 1st IAR-99 SOIM training aircraft of LOT II.

The SOIM aircraft was developed for the Romanian Air Force by the Romanian aircraft manufacturer Avioane Craiova SA and was upgraded by Elbit Systems.

The ceremony took place in Craiova, Romania, with the auspices of senior Romanian government officials, high ranked Romanian Air Force officers and local Romanian industry representatives.

The IAR-99 is equipped with Elbit's advanced avionics systems, including the Virtual Training package ACTS (Advanced Combat Training System).

The aircraft will be used by the Romanian Air Force as a trainer and for Close Air Support (CAS) missions.

The advanced training features of the aircraft allow the Romanian Air Force to train its pilots for the modernized MIG 21 aircraft as well as for the next generation fighter combat aircraft.

This SOIM LOT II program follows a previous upgrade of 4 IAR-99 SOIM aircraft that were already delivered to the customer and are operational, to the full satisfaction of the customer.

A joint venture of the Romanian industry Avioane Craiova SA and Elbit Systems with the involvement of 3 other Romanian industries, the IAR-99 SOIM LOT II program provided employment to over a thousand Romanian employees.

The production of the IAR-99 SOIM took place in Avioane Craiova’s facility in Romania.

Elbit Systems supplied the modern avionics systems and support services, part of which are produced at Elbit's Romanian facilities.


Elbit Systems Ltd. is an international defense electronics company engaged in a wide range of defense-related programs throughout the world. The Elbit Systems Group, which includes the company and its subsidiaries, operates in the areas of aerospace, land and naval systems, command, control, communications, computers, intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance ("C4ISR"), advanced electro-optic and space technologies, EW suites, airborne warning systems, ELINT systems, data links and military communications systems and equipment. The Group also focuses on the upgrading of existing military platforms and developing new technologies for defense and homeland security applications.

SOURCE: defense-aerospace.com
 
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andrei

New Member
Options for RO AF

This year Romania has a 2 billions euros defence budget of which 400 millions are for procurement. It is the largest budget since 1989 and it will keep growing.
I think the F16 are a bad choice even if they are improved. They will fly for another 15 years and then what ? We would be the last country in the world to order the F16.
My choice
Go for a high/low mix
a squadron of Rafale - 24 for air superiority and interdiction. Best platform, could face potential foes such as Ukrainian Su27. Romania is probably the country that will be at the border of the EU and of NATO for the next decades.
two squadrons of Gryppen for patrol and current operations, FGA - lower maintenance cost.
Price should be around 1 billion for the Rafale and 1.3 billions for the Gryppen. But this should allow for an effective force - cheap maintenance Gryppen for CAP and general operations and air superiority and sophisticated weapons for the Rafale.
Add in some israeli AEW mounted platforms - the EMB for instance - . a dozen used C130, UAV for reconnaissance - Romania has already 6 of them in operations in Irak. This could be done, in financial terms from 2007 to 2015 with Gryppen deliveries first.
Makes political sense, too, get closer to Europe - France largest investor in ROmania - and get investment returns . And get access to all sort of weapons.
 

contedicavour

New Member
andrei said:
This year Romania has a 2 billions euros defence budget of which 400 millions are for procurement. It is the largest budget since 1989 and it will keep growing.
I think the F16 are a bad choice even if they are improved. They will fly for another 15 years and then what ? We would be the last country in the world to order the F16.
My choice
Go for a high/low mix
a squadron of Rafale - 24 for air superiority and interdiction. Best platform, could face potential foes such as Ukrainian Su27. Romania is probably the country that will be at the border of the EU and of NATO for the next decades.
two squadrons of Gryppen for patrol and current operations, FGA - lower maintenance cost.
Price should be around 1 billion for the Rafale and 1.3 billions for the Gryppen. But this should allow for an effective force - cheap maintenance Gryppen for CAP and general operations and air superiority and sophisticated weapons for the Rafale.
Add in some israeli AEW mounted platforms - the EMB for instance - . a dozen used C130, UAV for reconnaissance - Romania has already 6 of them in operations in Irak. This could be done, in financial terms from 2007 to 2015 with Gryppen deliveries first.
Makes political sense, too, get closer to Europe - France largest investor in ROmania - and get investment returns . And get access to all sort of weapons.
Well, if your defence budget allows for so much investment (lucky you ;) then go for the Typhoon, as most European countries are doing (incl Austria and very probably Greece too).
One other suggestion, don't change your planes all in one go. You'd have a simultaneously obsolescent air force in 20 years time and you would risk not having the money to replace it entirely.
My recommandation would still be to lease F-16 ADF second-hand from the US (relatively cheap) to replace half your Lancers ; then when the remaining Lancers have to be retired consider in 10 years' time a batch of new aircrafts. By then you'll have a lot of data to compare Typhoon, Rafale, Gripen, F-18E/F, or even JSF.
Quality matters a lot, but quantity does as well. I prefer 110 lancers than 25 F16 , and most certainly I prefer 50 F16ADF to 20 Gripens or Rafales.

cheers
 

RA1911

Member
As "always" it will be a political decision, especially considering Romanias entry into the EU.
Leasing second-hand F16 would be a short term capability solution, but I ask questions if it will be the best economic long term solution.
My point is that in a country with a strickt budget you have to look at the total costs of not only purchasing the jets but also to maintain them over their life span.
Gripen would provide Romania with an airplane with great capabilities at low costs from a fellow EU country with great expectations for tech transfers and industrial participation.
I also believe the Gripen will be available in short notice as the Swedish AirForce to my knowledge still has surplus jets that probably would be available for lease.
3sqds of Gripens within 2015 anyone? :)


Also, as a NATO member Romania will take advantage of NATOs E3 fleet, and as with other small NATO countries (Read: Norway, Denmark etc) an AWACS platform of their own will not be economically feasable. UAVs would be nice, but with a strick budget I only see small UAVs as feasable. The Gripen is a very capable rec. platform and could fit that role.
 

contedicavour

New Member
RA1911 said:
As "always" it will be a political decision, especially considering Romanias entry into the EU.
Leasing second-hand F16 would be a short term capability solution, but I ask questions if it will be the best economic long term solution.
My point is that in a country with a strickt budget you have to look at the total costs of not only purchasing the jets but also to maintain them over their life span.
Gripen would provide Romania with an airplane with great capabilities at low costs from a fellow EU country with great expectations for tech transfers and industrial participation.
I also believe the Gripen will be available in short notice as the Swedish AirForce to my knowledge still has surplus jets that probably would be available for lease.
3sqds of Gripens within 2015 anyone? :)


Also, as a NATO member Romania will take advantage of NATOs E3 fleet, and as with other small NATO countries (Read: Norway, Denmark etc) an AWACS platform of their own will not be economically feasable. UAVs would be nice, but with a strick budget I only see small UAVs as feasable. The Gripen is a very capable rec. platform and could fit that role.
You're right all this sounds reasonable, especially if Sweden really has surplus Gripens in great quantities. I though they only produced the strict minimum number of Gripens they needed :confused: , and that the only surplus planes were Viggens. If the Swedes don't have enough surplus, then buying new Gripens is according to me too expensive.
Since Gripens are anyway sold by an industrial alliance led by BAE, if Romania wanted offsets (investment in Romania in exchange for purchase of new aircrafts) it could have them by buying the BAE-DASA-Alenia Typhoons as Germany, Austria, Italy, probably Greece. Not that much more expensive and much more capable twin-engine long-range fighters (Romania is after all a big country in terms of airspace to cover).

cheers
 
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