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This is a discussion on Republic of Singapore Air Force Discussions within the Air Force & Aviation forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Aloha. Was searching for the electronics suite for the F-15T and chanced upon this site. PLA - Singapore has had ...


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Old November 1st, 2005   #31
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Re: Singapore has chosen F-15 as Next Gen Fighter

Aloha.
Was searching for the electronics suite for the F-15T and chanced upon this site.

PLA - Singapore has had a history 53 yrs ago when we couldnt fend for our own land. It is a small country with uber limited natural resources can easily be overrun in a blitz without proper immediate reponse forces.

The mission of the armed forces is to deter any threats to her sovereignity and to ensure a swift and decisive victory if deterence fails.

This answers why the small island state spends so much on military technology.

Regarding the J10, its probably a legacy problem. Safety is a core value of the RSAF, thus making the F15 a prefered choice over the J10. This is not just about track records, but also about proper documentations, maintainence expertise and operational training that the customer gets. We are not only buying the hardware but also the service support

IMO since the infrastructural ties are already in place with da US there should be an expected reduction in transition time from setup to FOC of the F15 sqn in Singapore. = cost savings + safer ops

Anyway. after 9/11 there arose a greater need for C4I and network centricity. The advanced electrioncs suite that the f15 comes with certainly gives a major boost to future plans. (read:longbow )

Information technology is the way to go in the 21st century, efficient and accurate dissemination of data allows the personnel to make a more informed decision when pushing the button.

I know what im writing is really vague but i had to leave out offiicial words due to security reasons.

Anyone heard about the Eagle Wall?

" During one of the multilateral exercises with the US few years back, non of our fighters actually made it past the Eagle Wall. All were shot down (ACMI). The wall was unscarthed." -Anonymous

Air supremacy they say.
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Old November 1st, 2005   #32
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Re: Singapore has chosen F-15 as Next Gen Fighter

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Originally Posted by ReNeSiS
Anyone heard about the Eagle Wall?

" During one of the multilateral exercises with the US few years back, non of our fighters actually made it past the Eagle Wall. All were shot down (ACMI). The wall was unscarthed." -Anonymous

Air supremacy they say.
First, welcome to the forums.

Second - and with ref to above. The first reference I heard regarding "Eagle Wall" was from the 1st Gulf War. It referred to a specific defensive layer of aircraft that was managed by an AWACs.

You probably won't get too much detail about systems and techniques used though as there is an extraordinary amount of info that never gets into the public domain - so google is not your friend in this case.
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Old November 1st, 2005   #33
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Re: Singapore has chosen F-15 as Next Gen Fighter

The choice for the F-15(E) over the J-10A is obvious I think.
1) the Singaporian air force is seeking for a multi-role fighter jet which is focused on carrying out ground strike missions. The J-10A is mainly a multirole fighter jet which has its strength in air combat and only limited air-to-ground capabilities.
2) The F-15 can carry more UGBs, LGBs and AGMs than the F-16 or the J-10 due to its larger airframe and more thrust.
3) Even if the J-10B would be ready to be delivered (which is still not in low-rate production) the Singaporian air force has F-16D in their inventory already. getting a similar plane is not required then.

and about the purpose of the military purpose of Singapore:
the last time Singapore suffered invasion was in WW2 when the Japanese army went in and butchered over 200.000(or more) people there. That's why China, Singapore and South Korea are keen to establish high capable military forces to prevent another bitter defeat by any possible wars. (admin: deleted as outside spirit of response needed)

Last edited by gf0012-aust; November 1st, 2005 at 08:59 PM.
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Old November 1st, 2005   #34
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Re: Singapore has chosen F-15 as Next Gen Fighter

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The choice for the F-15(E) over the J-10A is obvious I think.
There is no way that a J-10A would be certified to use the full range of Singapores available weapons fits.
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Old November 3rd, 2005   #35
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Re: Singapore has chosen F-15 as Next Gen Fighter

how's the singapore F-15 performance&fire power compare to malaysia
SU-30MKM and Mig29.....

malaysia is highly interested for a squadron of F/A-18F super hornet to complement existing eight F/A-18D. other choice might be additional/2nd batch order of SU-30MKM.
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Old December 11th, 2005   #36
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Re: Singapore has chosen F-15 as Next Gen Fighter

As a Sporean, and on why the my gov choose the F15 over the other continental platform. I belive its also a question of longistics and compatibilities, pls correct me if i am wrong.

Our mech are used to US made aircraft and their systems, F16, F5, A4,.
same also goes for the pilots and the cockpit configurations.


I would believe munitions/systems used for F16 will be more conpateble with the F15 then a rafale or EuroF.

As a US allied country ( with a small USN supply base located on the island) , and if the buttons are really pushed, how can we expect US to supply us with rafale or euro fighter parts when it really comes down to it.

We already have training facilities in the US, if we had a continental aircraft would we need to open/negotiate another one in Euro. ( our airspace is not big enough to train our pilots propely ) and we prepared to pay the cost involved in doing so.

These are just my personal thoughts although I'm with the SAF not RSAF. I very sure these considerations played a very important role in the decsision to purchase the F15.
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Old May 18th, 2006   #37
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Eagle Wall?

My first post in this forum.

Eagle Wall?

Hmm...sounds familiar...

It is not invincible, you just got to know how to fight it.

Fight the pilot, not the platform. The best weapon system today still requires split second decisions by the operators. Lure the pilot into making an error, and then you get the opportunity to kill the confused, the crippled, and the singletons.

The Eagle Wall is a tactic. And no, it is neither defensive in posture or controlled by AWACs. In the USAF, the controllers are mostly enlisted personnel. Sometimes, they are called ABOs, sometimes weapon controllers. The tactic is always run by the flight leader, but supported by AWACs or GCI.

Kudos to Gary, who is very knowledgeable and kind enough to share his knowledge. It is obvious that you have a lot of experience in the defense business.

My opinion is that the Eagle is a poor investment by Singapore.
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Old May 18th, 2006   #38
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My first post in this forum.
My opinion is that the Eagle is a poor investment by Singapore.
I for one respect your opinion, however I was wondering if Singapore were to chose a different fighter over the Eagle, which would be the best choice? (Of course in your opinion). Not to sound confrontational or anything, but I think the Eagle is a reasonable choice for Singapore because of its ability to carry a diverse range of munitions and its combat record (regardless of the fact that most of the combat has been against 3rd or 2nd rate airforces).
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Old May 19th, 2006   #39
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I think cost wise the F-16 Block 60 would be a better buy money wise than the EF-2000 Tr3. It's not like they don't operate the aircraft already, it gives them AESA and gives them a better selection of stand-off weapons. I'm not sure why they would want to jump to a totally foreign aircraft like EF. The F-15E uses APG-70, a very good radar but it's not AESA, just like CAPTOR.

Last edited by Big-E; May 19th, 2006 at 12:25 AM.
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Old May 19th, 2006   #40
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I think cost wise the F-16 Block 60 would be a better buy money wise than the EF-2000 Tr3. It's not like they don't operate the aircraft already, it gives them AESA and gives them a better selection of stand-off weapons. I'm not sure why they would want to jump to a totally foreign aircraft like EF. The F-15E uses APG-70, a very good radar but it's not AESA, just like CAPTOR.
By all accounts the Singaporeans didn't buy a straight E model.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...agle/index.php
"....The F-15SG will be an advanced version of the U.S. Air Force's F-15E Strike Eagle, with minor customization to Singapore's specifications and the most up-to-date avionics available. According to Jane's Defense Weekly on February 23, 2006, the AN/APG-63v3 AESA radar will also be included, and there are rumours that a number of Israeli electronics and self-defense systems will be part of the F-15SG as well. Sniper XR surveillance & targeting pods will be added to Singapore's previous US equipment list, and the higher-thrust GE F110 engine used in many F-16s will be used instead of Pratt & Whitney's standard F100 that powers some F-16s and most F-15s...."

I don't know if the Singaporean F-16s use the GE F110 engine. If so then logistically great.

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Old May 19th, 2006   #41
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If their runing SG then that should be a good buy, I still wonder if F-16(60) is cheaper than their F-15 buy?
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Old May 19th, 2006   #42
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If their runing SG then that should be a good buy, I still wonder if F-16(60) is cheaper than their F-15 buy?
At the volumes the S'porean are buying, I'd agree that F-15SG would most likely be cheaper than F-16E/F.

Rumours are that the UAE Block 60s cost about US$150m each inlcuding development and, apart from the mould line, engine and a few anciliary systems, bear very little resemblance to any other F-16 flying!

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Old May 19th, 2006   #43
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HK_Thoughtful, I agree the F-15SG is a reasonable aircraft. However, is reasonable good enough to last another 20-30 years? Where and what is the F-15 MLU going to look like? The F-15SG is already a MLU of the original F-15 in its own right.

I think the Eagle is a poor choice for 2 reasons:
1. Legacy issues. Although packed with new wepaons/avionics systems, the integrated logistics support concept remains largely unchanged. Mostly, it would probably be maintained like a current generation F-16C. Another issue is training. You flip less than 10 switches to start the Rafale. You take 15 mins and a whole full checklist to start a Strike Eagle with 2 crew (assuming the jet has not been prepared for alert duties). Which is easier to train the pilot? These has long term implications.

2. No real sustainable air superiority edge. While capable, it does not have a real significant air superiority edge against the SU-30 class threat. The SU-30 class threat should not be underestimated. Thrust vectoring enables very efficient/effective launch and leave BVR missile tactics (Think launch high and fast, decelerate, and accelerate very quickly to leave the engagement). That combined with the superior weapon carriage of the SU-30, Israeli/Indian/French avionics makes the SU very formidable. The AESA/Link-16/AMRAAM capability is already available in some F-15Cs today. Although the F-15SG's AESA would be improved, I doubt it would be significant. Also, the US is famous for selling to foreign nations FMS versions, which are usually downgraded from their true capabilities. The RSAF can only hope that the US will eventually develop a newer and more capable AMRAAM and sell it to them.

I am not advocating the Rafale or Typhoon. However, they have a different type of edge over the Flanker. For the Rafale, the French is reputed to have one of the best EW systems in the world. The aircraft MMI is also one of the best. Electronic attack can be employed to delay enemy detection, deny target tracking and spoof weapons employment (among other things). The caveat to this approach is that nationally, Singapore must have a very strong in-house EW software developing capability.

The Typhoon/Meteor combination is in my opinion quite deadly. The meteor is designed to have such a large no escape zone that the Flanker will not be able to escape once it maneuvers to the R-77's launch envelope to engage the Typhoon.

I consider comparisons between the three platforms with regards to networked operations/capabilities to be extraneous. All 3 fighters are equipped with the Link-16, and is thus supportable by the same compatible command and control support infrastructure.

Unfortuntately, neither the Typhoon or Rafael have the legs or payload of the Eagle.

Hence, my answer to your question is that I think the Singapore government should have waited out a few years for the Typhoon, Rafale and perhaps the JSF to mature. Perhaps, Singapore really cannot wait. But I do not really understand why, since neighbourly relations have never seemed to be better.

rossfrb_1, the GE 129 engine is the same thrust class (29,000 lbs) as the PW-229 engine that is being used on Singapore's F-16. I think that Singapore chose the GE engine so that the entire advanced fighter fleet is not dependent on a single engine manufacturer. In the end, this means diversification.

Magoo, I think the non-recurring engineering (NRE) cost is very high for the UAE Blk 60s. however, I believe that the Singapore government has been pretty cost smart about its purchases by waiting for other nations to pay for most of the NRE, then requesting aircraft of the similar configuration. This is evident in the F-16s. If we purchase a Block 60 today, I do not think it will cost as much. However, I think the Singapore government dropped the F-16 Block 60 for the same reason they selected the GE-129 engine for the F-15SG (See above).
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Old May 19th, 2006   #44
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Why was the Super Hornet ruled out?
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Old May 20th, 2006   #45
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The most accurate reply would be : because the Super Hornet didn't meet Singapore's needs.
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