NZ skyhawks and jet trainers finally sold

[nz enthusiast]

http://www.tvnz.co.nz/view/page/411749/610262
A sale has finally been struck and after four years New Zealand's Skyhawks are off to a new home.

One News can reveal the planes have been sold to an American company but the deal is so top secret Prime Minister Helen Clark claims she did not even know about it.

When asked about the multi million dollar deal, Clark said she had not had a briefing and did not know if they had been sold.

Clark then came back within an hour with a statement saying that officials had come to an agreement..

"I understand negotiations have gone very well and that officials have been able to conclude a heads of agreement but that has to come up to the cabinet and I'll be in a position to accept that as a late paper for monday," Clark said.

One news understands both the Skyhawk and Aermacchi training aircraft have been sold to an American pilot training company.

Clark says there has been interest from the US and from elsewhere, and said the government should be in a position to announce that on Monday.

Details of the sale are still secret but Clark says received at least $100 million for the planes.

She says there will have to be other costs coming off which could be close to $10 million

 

[aaaditya]

http://www.tvnz.co.nz/view/page/411749/610262
A sale has finally been struck and after four years New Zealand's Skyhawks are off to a new home.

One News can reveal the planes have been sold to an American company but the deal is so top secret Prime Minister Helen Clark claims she did not even know about it.

When asked about the multi million dollar deal, Clark said she had not had a briefing and did not know if they had been sold.

Clark then came back within an hour with a statement saying that officials had come to an agreement..

"I understand negotiations have gone very well and that officials have been able to conclude a heads of agreement but that has to come up to the cabinet and I'll be in a position to accept that as a late paper for monday," Clark said.

One news understands both the Skyhawk and Aermacchi training aircraft have been sold to an American pilot training company.

Clark says there has been interest from the US and from elsewhere, and said the government should be in a position to announce that on Monday.

Details of the sale are still secret but Clark says received at least $100 million for the planes.

She says there will have to be other costs coming off which could be close to $10 million

so what will the skyhawks be replaced with? i remember reading sometime ago that newzealand airforce was planning to give up its combat element.is it rue?it would be real shame.i believe newzealand should acquire a small number of f-18's similiar to the ones with australia which will further improve the combat capabilities of the nzaf and the interoperability btween nzaf and the australian aircorce.

 

[pepsi]

Interesting that it didn't happen until just before the election, heh

aaaditya, as far as i know they chose to give up their air combat capability in 2000 when the F-16 deal was scrapped, and since then there has been no sign of the current government replacing it, and only recently the opposition party (national) has also said they wouldn't change the current defence situation in relation to both spending and acquiring an air combat capability.

 

[aaaditya]

Interesting that it didn't happen until just before the election, heh

aaaditya, as far as i know they chose to give up their air combat capability in 2000 when the F-16 deal was scrapped, and since then there has been no sign of the current government replacing it, and only recently the opposition party (national) has also said they wouldn't change the current defence situation in relation to both spending and acquiring an air combat capability.

thats the point i can't understand ,i believe it would place new zealand in a vulnerable posistion, a combat aircraft can also be used for anti piracy operation,maritime strike,airdefence etc.(atleast a light jet,maybe a combat variant of the mb339d should be considered.):coffee .

 

[JBodnar39]

Not only does NZnot have an airforce it has a navy that is capable of little more than fisheries protection

 

[nz enthusiast]

I reckon if national whens the election on saturday they will do something about it. They are just not saying anything now so the hippies do't get all hyped up.
When I had a talk with the national spokesperson for defence John Carter over the phone we both agreed that it would be better for us to get into a fully unmanned air combat capability early which will benefit us more in the long term ie snarks teamed up with Neurons or X-45C's.
The act party did do a independent review a while back that come to the conclusion that if we want to have a strike force of 16 F-16C/Ds with tankers and support equipment we would be looking at an minimum of 3 billion dollars and thats on a very tight budget.

 

[gf0012-aust]

One news understands both the Skyhawk and Aermacchi training aircraft have been sold to an American pilot training company.

Clark says there has been interest from the US and from elsewhere, and said the government should be in a position to announce that on Monday.

Details of the sale are still secret but Clark says received at least $100 million for the planes.

She says there will have to be other costs coming off which could be close to $10 million

I suspect that they've been bought by the US company that initially rejected them 2 years ago for being too expensive. They ended up buying Israeli scooters instead. They actually are contracted to do aggressor training for the USAF.

 

[Whiskyjack]

I reckon if national whens the election on saturday they will do something about it. They are just not saying anything now so the hippies do't get all hyped up.
When I had a talk with the national spokesperson for defence John Carter over the phone we both agreed that it would be better for us to get into a fully unmanned air combat capability early which will benefit us more in the long term ie snarks teamed up with Neurons or X-45C's.
The act party did do a independent review a while back that come to the conclusion that if we want to have a strike force of 16 F-16C/Ds with tankers and support equipment we would be looking at an minimum of 3 billion dollars and thats on a very tight budget.

I can't see the strike wing of the NZ Airforce being reformed any time soon. I think that overall NZ is in a predicament when it comes to defence.

The Airforce will have upgraded Orions and C130s within the next few years. The NH90 has also been selected, but from what I can find the number to be brought will be around 7-8, which means around 3 deployable and of those 2 available at one time.

The Navy has the 2 ANZAC frigates but really needs three frigates to maintain critical mass, but a 3rd orphan frigate will be expensive to maintain and training requirements will also be difficult. The Multi-role Vessel (MRV) that is being built is supposed to be an army logistics ship capable of maritime patrol, however it has no dock at the stern, which will make over the beach operations difficult at best! A ship that will do all things, but none of them well!

The army has the LAV3s, that cannot be deployed by C-130, or effectively over the beach by the MRV. NZ is a South Pacific nation operating in a island maritime environment with a mech/motorised infantry!! How NZ would respond to a situation on one of the Pacific Islands is up for debate.

My thoughts anyway.

 

[ANZAC ACE]

Hi guys! New to this, here are some of my thoughts.

The army has the LAV3s, that cannot be deployed by C-130, or effectively over the beach by the MRV. NZ is a South Pacific nation operating in a island maritime environment with a mech/motorised infantry!! How NZ would respond to a situation on one of the Pacific Islands is up for debate.

This is the reality of the current make up and structure of the NZDF. The Government has focused all efforts to make the services only capable of mulitnational peacekeeping operations. The Government has not taken into account the possible implications of its purchases and how it limits the capabilities of the NZDF.

For example what would happen if there was a another coup in Fiji?(That would have to be a world record for coups in single country haha ) But this time it turned violent with the Fijian military openly battling rebel forces. The country decends into anarchy. NZ must now act, only we have no real way to deploy signifcant numbers of our LAVS quicky. Yes it would be possible to maybe organise some sort merchant shipping but time would be a factor.

If we retained our strike wing it would be conceiveable that a small unit of LAVs that we could transport would be rather effective in conjuction with the SAS, and infantry with fire support. This force would be effective in supporting Fijian Government forces and send a clear and strong message to rebels that NZ supports Democracy in the pacific. The strike wing would be a clear show of donminance to the rebels and could be foward based at another pacific island (eg Samoa) closer to Fiji. This would ensure a quick and decisive operation and resoration of democracy.

What the NZ Goverment has sold away is not only its strike wing but also a diminished ability to yield the stick part of the carrot and stick equation in our part of the world. I mourn the departure of our strike wing but im glad that they will at least fly again. A hypothetical situation like the Fiji one is not as far fetched as some may consider ( recent Tongan events may show)and our government is left basically politcally impotent.

 

[Whiskyjack]

This is the reality of the current make up and structure of the NZDF. The Government has focused all efforts to make the services only capable of mulitnational peacekeeping operations. The Government has not taken into account the possible implications of its purchases and how it limits the capabilities of the NZDF.

For example what would happen if there was a another coup in Fiji?(That would have to be a world record for coups in single country haha ) But this time it turned violent with the Fijian military openly battling rebel forces. The country decends into anarchy. NZ must now act, only we have no real way to deploy signifcant numbers of our LAVS quicky. Yes it would be possible to maybe organise some sort merchant shipping but time would be a factor.

If we retained our strike wing it would be conceiveable that a small unit of LAVs that we could transport would be rather effective in conjuction with the SAS, and infantry with fire support. This force would be effective in supporting Fijian Government forces and send a clear and strong message to rebels that NZ supports Democracy in the pacific. The strike wing would be a clear show of donminance to the rebels and could be foward based at another pacific island (eg Samoa) closer to Fiji. This would ensure a quick and decisive operation and resoration of democracy.

.

I agree with you in theory AA, however the problems I have with the strike wing in the context of the South Pacific is that NZ will never be able to afford the infrastructure to make the support of your Fiji situation feasible. The minimum force level to maintain 10 aircraft overseas is 20, that allows for maintenance and training to continue wile the other 10 are on deployment. Even allowing for a Samoa base, to provide CAS, they would need to be on station around Fiji, that would require air refuelling tankers.

Then there is the logistics tail from NZ to transport Fuel, Ordinance, Spare parts etc. Which would require NZ to actually have enough ordinance stockpiled. Added to the logistics strain is the fact that the army will require its share of resources to get there as well.

I would look at doing the following, convert one of the two LAV battalions back to light infantry, making it easily air deployable. Keep the current MRV as a disaster relief, good will vessel, that can also deliver supplies around the South Pacific, even make it available to the UN. Order a Dutch Enforcer class LPD, that can carry the and offload the army over the beach. Invest in extra NH90s and look to acquiring A400Ms, that can deploy an LAV and finally something like an armed Predator that the US has been using, which will also cover recon.



These are just my ideas, but I completely agree with you AA the NZ Govt needs to decide what are NZ,s interests and let the NZDF equip itself without the continuous govt interference that it has been suffering for 20 yrs or more now. Don’t get me wrong Peace Keeping is a great and worthwhile thing but this should be a by product of a force that is configured to best represent the national interests with the recourses available.



My two cents for what it is worth.

 

[ANZAC ACE]

The minimum force level to maintain 10 aircraft overseas is 20, that allows for maintenance and training to continue wile the other 10 are on deployment. Even allowing for a Samoa base, to provide CAS, they would need to be on station around Fiji, that would require air refuelling tankers.

Very true i didnt take that into account. I guess this is made even harder with realibility problems of the c-130s and their ability to keep the base at samoa suppiled. Your thoughts on the NH90's and the A400 i think are good options as well as the LPD. The UAV could also be a good idea.

Im not schooled on the finer points of army force structure, but it does seem that what your are suggesting makes the NZDF more deployable and that is something that i support. I guess if it is the current governments policy to contribute to peace keeping operations solely then heading in the direction that you are suggesting is the right way to go. A more deployable force capable of moving more of its own key assets.

 

[Jezza]

MORE INFO


http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publish/article_003356.php

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/images/spacer.gifThe Minister of Defence, Hon Mark Burton today announced that the RNZAF Skyhawk and Aermacchi fleets have been sold to a private American company, Tactical Air Services, Inc. for around $155 million (US$110 million ) following the signing of a Heads of Agreement between the company and the Royal New Zealand Air Force.

“This is an excellent outcome. The money received from the sale after aircraft regeneration, shipping and other costs associated with the sale will be available to continue the programme of developing a modern, relevant defence force,†Mark Burton said.

“There has been much speculation on the eventual fate of the air combat fleet including misinformed comment about the Skyhawks being scrapped. All parties will therefore be pleased to see this successful outcome.â€

The recent successful introduction of the giant European aerospace company Alenia Aeronautica, SpA, a Finmeccanica company, as the company’s “corner stone†shareholder has meant Tactical Air Services is now able to complete the acquisition of the New Zealand air combat force aircraft. Finmeccanica is also the parent of Aermacchi SpA, the manufacturer of the RNZAF Aermacchi aircraft.

The sale is conditional upon the formal agreement of the US State Department permitting the importation of the aircraft into the United States as well as the required End User Certificates from New Zealand and Italy. These matters have already been extensively discussed with the respective foreign government departments and no problems were anticipated in finalising the arrangements.

Regeneration work on returning the Skyhawks to operational status will be undertaken by Safe Air Limited in Blenheim. The Aermacchi fleet is already fully operational. Both fleets will be progressively shipped to the US over the next few months.

“Given the considerable interest in advancing this matter from other political parties I am sure that they will welcome this announcement.

"I am particularly pleased that the regeneration work required to bring the Skyhawks back to operational status is going to a New Zealand company, Blenheim's Safe Air. This recognises the high level of New Zealand expertise in aircraft engineering."

-ends-

 

[gf0012-aust]

MORE INFO


http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publish/article_003356.php

The Minister of Defence, Hon Mark Burton today announced that the RNZAF Skyhawk and Aermacchi fleets have been sold to a private American company, Tactical Air Services, Inc. for around $155 million (US$110 million ) following the signing of a Heads of Agreement between the company and the Royal New Zealand Air Force.

As per my prev. TAS are the company that looked at them 2 years ago and knocked them back as NZGOV wanted too much money. They ended up buying Israeli scooters. Looks like the Gov blinked and let them back for another bite.

TAS work out at Nellis IIRC and do Aggressor training.

 

[nz enthusiast]

Anyone notice they were sold just a week out from the election? (elections on saturday by the way, I hope to say goodbye Helen)

 

[ANZAC ACE]

Anyone notice they were sold just a week out from the election? (elections on saturday by the way, I hope to say goodbye Helen)

Yeah this was noted on some radio talk back shows. Some political commentators suggested ( sorry cant recall their names) that labour fast tracked the sale to ensure there was no chance that a possible new National lead government could bring back strike wing easily if elected.

Others on News Talk ZB suggested that National would be happy to see them go as it made previous promises to bring back the strike wing impossible and would save them large amounts of cash.

Ive only really heard political opinions from Ron Mark and Rodney Hide, both of whom vowed to bring back the capability with mr Hide suggesting he might stop the sale if elected( from what i understand).

I personally hope to see the back of this government and their warped view on defence.

 

[gf0012-aust]

I personally hope to see the back of this government and their warped view on defence.

So what is the electoral mood? who's likely. Is Winston Peters pro defence? Is he still a wild card?

 

[ANZAC ACE]

So what is the electoral mood? who's likely. Is Winston Peters pro defence? Is he still a wild card?

This is a pretty dirty political campaign by New Zealand standards. What is clear is this is going to be one of the closest elections we have seen in a while. Under the MMP system of voting ( which is complicated and hard to explain briefly) the result of the election could depend on a few crucial seats.

The only certainty is that the two biggest parties in parliament will be Labour and National. What will be interesting is which party will be able to get enough minor party support to form a coalition government. Almost every poll that comes out has a different result so its hard to judge who has the advantage.

Winston Peters party NZ First has a very pro defence policy. In my opinion his party has the best and most qualified spokesperson on defence Ron Mark. He served in military in NZ and overseas. This reflects in their defense policy that in my opinion is the best and most comprehensive defense policy. The irony is that Winston has ruelled his party out of coalition with either National or Labour so we probably will not see him in government.

One possibility is a Green Labour coalition. In this scenario i fear what will become of the NZDF particularly with the Greens having people like Keith Locke who is a supposed defense spokesmen. This is a man who suggested dispanding the Navy's ANZAC class frigates and having a proped up customs service insted to protect our ECC .

Under this government there is actually, if you can believe it a minister for disarmament. We have to be the only country in the world with such a ridiculous portfolio.

The general way to summerise defense policies in this election is that all the right wing parties support true combat capabilities for the NZDF while the left support a peace keeping focus.

If you are interested you can compare defense policies of the various parties at this link http://www.nzvotes.org/index.cfm/policies/policy?Cat=Defence

 

[EnigmaNZ]

We just had a situation here in NZ where a private plane was stolen and the pilot threatened to fly it into one of Aucklands tallest buildings, the Skytower. All we could do was shadow it in a police helicopter. It eventually crashed into the sea. A number of people I talked to about it with, were wondering if removing the strike wing was a good idea now. It happened on the night of the election as well. Police were dispatched to protect the Prime minister whose house was close by, and the Leader of the oppostion, also living nearby. Exactly how they were meant to protect them is not clear.

 

[pepsi]

Yeah i heard about that light plane thing, you have to wonder if the guy still would have done it if there was a possibility of being shot down for it

I doubt much will be done about the air force, the election was so close, and NZ's system is so weird, now all these minor parties hold so much power in deciding who is the leader, its ridiculous in my opinion..

But no doubt the maori party and the greens will go with Labour, but only after getting what they want, which will be all the land rights stuff for the maori party, and no doubt the Greens will have some 'input' on what should be done with the defence force, and i doubt it will be related to regaining an air strike capability heh

 

[Jezza]

Yeah all the pilots will stand on the end of the runway doing the HAKA.
that will scare anyone away :dance3 :kar :dance 4