New Russian Aircraft?

[onslaught]

Can anybody give me info on the Su-30BM and the MiG LMFS? I've never heard of this Su-30 variant or of this new MiG project. Are these in competition with the PAK FA or are they planes that will serve in the VVS as a bridge until the PAK FA comes out?

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/av-main.htm

 

[XaNDeR]

New SU-30BM is the planned great modernization of the Su-30 that is also designated as Su-35 , so you can get a better picture , in the time of next years Russia is planning quite alot of Su-35 to be produced for their needs.

Mig LMFS is 1 of the projects for 5th generation aircraft from MIG biro

There are at least 2 more classed as

Mig 1.42 and Mig 1.27

I don't have much info on LMFS but afaik it is designed to be somewhat stealth and equaly intended for Ground attacks aswell as air to air combat.

Its said to be light and fast , and stealth , easy to produce .. etc

 

[Scorpion82]

I think its a typo, cause there is no Su-30BM designations, only Su-35BM. Though Su-35BM seems not to be official and Su-35 is used for it only.

 

[jennery587]

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[Ozzy Blizzard]

Xander Do You Think Mig-35 Better Then Then F-22

Mate you do realise the MiG 35 is the offisial designation of the latest member of the MiG 29 familly, an AESA equiped MiG 29 OVT. Although this is shaping up to be an excellent multi role platform, considering it to be even remotely comparable to an F22 is beyonde a streach IMO.

Perhaps you meant the MiG 1.44? I know this can be confusing since it was once called the MiG 35, the russians change numbers more than the americans change names (remember F22 Lightening II, i even had a game with that name).

I know you asked Xander, but this is an interesting topic so i hope you dont mind if i give you my two cents???

First let me say tat the MiG 1.44 is only a demostrater and AFAIK has only flown twice, weheras the F22 is in squadron service and fully operational. They are two very very different things. So we are taking some huge leaps of faith here, assumbing the MiG 1.44 was operational at the moment with current russian tech.

In raw performance terms the MiG 1.44 is apt to be comperable to the F22. With the AL 41F the max ceiling should be well up in the 50kft range. Also the combination of these engines, a delta wing/canard design and internal weapons carriage should allow this platform to seriously supercruise at or above Mach 1.5. Thats nothing to snivle at and currently something that only the F22 can do. As far as rate of climb and digfighting ability, the wing loading is unknown (to me at least) but given the huge ammount of it, including the lifting body the wing loading should be relatively low, below 400kgm2, i'd guess somewhere around the -350kg/m2 mark. Also a pair of 40000lb thrust AL 41F's should give this 18000kg platform a decent power to weight ratio. So rate of climb and turn radius should be comperable to an F22 (perhaps even better), especially in Yaw as the AL 41F's are 3d trust vectored compared to the F119's 2d TVC. So all in all in raw performance terms the MiG 1.44 would be comperable to the F22.

However in terms of avionics and information dominance the MiG 1.44 is a long, long, long way behind the F22. The APG 77 will be the most capable radar ever to be put into a fighter once it evolves to the same technological state as the APG 79. It is miles ahead of the best operational russian radars, PESA's such as the BARS and Ibis. Russian AESA's are behind the Europeans in terms of development and allmost a decade behind the americans. The F22 also enjoys the huge advantage of haveing a real LPI radar system, and an excellent AN/ALR-94 RWR, which would detect Ibis's emmitions. However it wouldn't be a huge leap to assumbe that the MiG 1.44 would have an IRST like the OLS on the MiG 35 which would be an advantage over the F22 in the <50km range zone. The big questsion is LO. The MiG 1.44 is stated to be "stealthy", but given the russians lack of experiance with LO technology and the "conventional" design of the MiG 1.44, i doubt it would be very stealthy at all. It may have a frontal RCS in the ballpark of, a typhoon perhaps or a SH with external weapons. Basically not very stealthy. This is compared to the F22, the stealthiest fighter ever produced.

So would the MiG 1.44 be better than the F22? No way. Would it be as good as the F22? In WVR maybe, in total capability, no way. The huge lead the F22 would have in information dominance means that the MiG 1.44 would be chopped to peices well before they even detected the F22. It would however give a Typhoon a really bad time and would be superior to all of the teen and teenski series of fighters, J10's and eurocanards. It would outperform all of these platforms in raw performance (by a large margin in some cases) and would be comparable or better in terms of avionics. So in encence it would be an excellent platform, but no F22.

 

[Scorpion82]

@Ozzy

So would the MiG 1.44 be better than the F22? No way. Would it be as good as the F22? In WVR maybe, in total capability, no way. The huge lead the F22 would have in information dominance means that the MiG 1.44 would be chopped to peices well before they even detected the F22. It would however give a Typhoon a really bad time and would be superior to all of the teen and teenski series of fighters, J10's and eurocanards. It would outperform all of these platforms in raw performance (by a large margin in some cases) and would be comparable or better in terms of avionics. So in encence it would be an excellent platform, but no F22.

That's the reason why they are developing the PAK FA now. I think any of such discussions about the "how could the MiG MFI have performed if..." are senseless and just to much speculation at all.

 

[gf0012-aust]

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Platform vs. Platform comparisons are not permitted. Similarly, "one-liner" posts are also not permitted. This is not the first time you have posted something in violation of http://defencetalk.com/forums/rules.php please review them before posting again.
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[gf0012-aust]

So would the MiG 1.44 be better than the F22? No way. Would it be as good as the F22? In WVR maybe, in total capability, no way. The huge lead the F22 would have in information dominance means that the MiG 1.44 would be chopped to peices well before they even detected the F22. It would however give a Typhoon a really bad time and would be superior to all of the teen and teenski series of fighters, J10's and eurocanards. It would outperform all of these platforms in raw performance (by a large margin in some cases) and would be comparable or better in terms of avionics. So in encence it would be an excellent platform, but no F22.

I'm not so sure I'd even want to give the MiG 1.44 that much credit. It was a concept technology demonstrator with less than 50 hrs total flying time. It can not even be remotely considered against platforms that are operational and evolving.

I ordered a very good ref book the other day - Soviet Secret Projects: Fighters Since 1945, for fans of russian aircraft it gives an a nice overview of some of he more bizarre russian developments. The Mig 1.44 doesn't get that good a write up btw.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

@Ozzy
That's the reason why they are developing the PAK FA now. I think any of such discussions about the "how could the MiG MFI have performed if..." are senseless and just to much speculation at all.

&...

I'm not so sure I'd even want to give the MiG 1.44 that much credit. It was a concept technology demonstrator with less than 50 hrs total flying time. It can not even be remotely considered against platforms that are operational and evolving

If you boys want a realistic comparison an F86 would probably have more combat lethality than the MFI, because i doubt the MiG 1.44 has a working weapons system. Its a technoogy demonstrator, thats all. As you said this is in comparison its main competition the F22 and EF2000, both in squadron service and both evolving into more lethal beasts. Its kind of the difference between fantasy and reality. However i did say:

First let me say tat the MiG 1.44 is only a demostrater and AFAIK has only flown twice, weheras the F22 is in squadron service and fully operational. They are two very very different things. So we are taking some huge leaps of faith here, assumbing the MiG 1.44 was operational at the moment with current russian tech.

So i never claimed this was anything more than fantasy. Still fantasy is fun somethimes.

I ordered a very good ref book the other day - Soviet Secret Projects: Fighters Since 1945, for fans of russian aircraft it gives an a nice overview of some of he more bizarre russian developments. The Mig 1.44 doesn't get that good a write up btw.

Do you mean it wasnt covered in much detail, or my "analysis" (i know you cant realisticaly analyse something that doesn't exist but humor me) was too favorable to the MiG 1.44? If it was the latter i'd like to hear were is was off the mark. Anyway it sounds like a good read. Id be interested to hear what sort of a write up they gave the Su 47 Berkut.

 

[Scorpion82]

Id be interested to hear what sort of a write up they gave the Su 47 Berkut.

Probably the same, though the Su-47 flew much more than the MiG MFI. In the end the russians realised that neither the MFI nor the Berkut would be effective against the Raptor. I'm really interested in how the PAK FA will eventually look like.

 

[Izzy1]

I'm really interested in how the PAK FA will eventually look like.

I'm sure you have already done this, but do a Google Image search under PAK FA - and you'll get a partial answer.

 

[jennery587]

Quote:
Id be interested to hear what sort of a write up they gave the Su 47 Berkut.

Probably the same, though the Su-47 flew much more than the MiG MFI. In the end the russians realised that neither the MFI nor the Berkut would be effective against the Raptor. I'm really interested in how the PAK FA will eventually look like





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[Ozzy Blizzard]

I'm sure you have already done this, but do a Google Image search under PAK FA - and you'll get a partial answer.

All i got was a russian looking F22! And i doubt they will be that blatant to copy the yanks that closely, although look at Buran nfloorl:

I thought it was the SU 47 with conventional wings and a new forward fusalage??? Anyway it will be interesting to see.

Anyone really think it'll be in production by 2010? How about 2020?

 

[qwerty223]

Mate you do realise the MiG 35 is the offisial designation of the latest member of the MiG 29 familly, an AESA equiped MiG 29 OVT. Although this is shaping up to be an excellent multi role platform, considering it to be even remotely comparable to an F22 is beyonde a streach IMO.

VT is not a standard component on 35

And there is no need of criticism on the 1.44. It is like GA said, an incomplete project with accumulate of only 50 flight hours. I don't think the YF22 prototype airframe had any far better performance than the 1.44 when it's still at the equivalent stage as of 1.44. If i recalled correctly, YF22/23 spent more than 4 years to prepare for their prototype and spent another 10years to finalize the project, in contrast of 3yrs of 50 flight hrs. Not to mention while their counterparts are enjoying full support from the rich nation, Russian engrs are struggling to squeeze bit by bit of money from the bankrupt government. Hence it is not fair and irrelevant to compare a these 2 projects.

On the array radar tech too your point of view is bias on the western. It is true that russian is behind of the track in AESA development and of course the overall achievements in radar tech. But the fact that they had a different approach in ESA makes them seem to look "out fashion". Note that out fashion doesn't mean they are not good in their work, in fact, they had impressive achievements in the PESA.

Again on the stealthy thing, you are again misleading jennery. Indeed F22 is a tremendous achievement of the human kind at the moment but, 1.44 had not even arrive to the stage of stealthiness test, it is still an empty "flyable" airframe until today. While the typhoon, the initial aim is not to build a stealth plane but an a/c that has stealth features. Therefore assuming equivalent and implementing far-fetched comparisons is not going to paint the right picture.

 

[SABRE]

All i got was a russian looking F22! And i doubt they will be that blatant to copy the yanks that closely, although look at Buran nfloorl:

I thought it was the SU 47 with conventional wings and a new forward fusalage??? Anyway it will be interesting to see.

Anyone really think it'll be in production by 2010? How about 2020?

I don't think there is any credible pic out there. At this moment any country aspiring to develop 5th generation fighter like F-22 or F-35 has not officially released any pictures. The fans however produce pics of aircrafts a mix of F-22+Su-30/45 or F-35+Su-30/45. The Chinese fan seems to be putting more MiG-1.44 to it as well.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

VT is not a standard component on 35

I was under the impression that thrust vectoring was being offered on the production model MiG 35. The current demonstrator isnt equiped with TVC, its not equiped with a working radar AFAIK either.

And there is no need of criticism on the 1.44. It is like GA said, an incomplete project with accumulate of only 50 flight hours. I don't think the F22 prototype airframe had any far better performance than the 1.44 when it's still at the equivalent stage as of 1.44. Hence it is not fair and irrelevant to compare a complete project to an incomplete one.

For one thing i didnt bring this up. Jennery asked which was better, and since the MiG 1.44 is still a demonstrater, i used the stated goals of the programe and the best current russian technology which would be in the system if it were operational now. The airframe of the MFI exists, the engines exist and their performance is known, the best russian PESA's exist, what else do you want?

On the array radar tech too your point of view is bias on the western. It is true that russian is behind of the track in AESA development and of course the overall achievements in radar tech. But the fact that they had a different approach in ESA makes them seem to look "out fashion". Note that out fashion doesn't mean they are not good in their work, in fact, they had impressive achieves in the PESA tech.

Yes the russian PESA's are very good, Ibis in particular. However AESA's are more advanced in several ways and also in general more capable. Thats why there is a steady progression, worldwide, from MSA's to PESA's to AESA's. Ibis may be the most capable PESA out there (and I stress MAY) but the nature of PESA's means they lack LPI ability, and they lack en electronic atack capability. Anyways your statement indicates that your critisising me because you dont like what i said because your fundimentaly mistaken in the above statement. I never stated that the russian radars were bad only that the APG 77 was better, and it IS.

Again on the stealthy thing, you are misleading jennery. Indeed F22 is a tremendous achievement of the human kind at the moment but, 1.44 had not even arrive to the stage of stealthiness test, it is still an empty airframe until today. While the typhoon, the initial aim is not to build a stealth plane but a a/c that has stealth features. Therefore assuming equivalent and implementing far-fetched comparisons is not going to paint the right picture.

The fact is that the russians are at 1st gen stealth, the americans are at 4th gen, what does that tell you? That tells me they have sweet *%$# all experiance with LO on a high performance platform. Look at the forward fusilage, looks pretty damn conventional dosnt it??? No sharp curves or allong the horizontal plane??? Now if the design was going to get radically different then its not the same platform is it??? It looks like a typhoon, it has no obvious stealth features, so i wouldnt be suprised if its frontal aspect RCS is in the ball park of that little, slender typhoon. Now is that so unreasonable or am i just being "US biased"...

See below, ones a true VLO platform and the other isnt... See if you can tell the difference:

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

I don't think there is any credible pic out there. At this moment any country aspiring to develop 5th generation fighter like F-22 or F-35 has not officially released any pictures. The fans however produce pics of aircrafts a mix of F-22+Su-30/45 or F-35+Su-30/45. The Chinese fan seems to be putting more MiG-1.44 to it as well.

This is what i meant about looking like an F22.

 

[flyer19999]

F-22

With the S-400 air defense system and a follow-on that is even better the F-22 has a lot to fear. The S-400 missile system can operate being fully jammed. The interceptor missile uses a home-on-jam mode and also has an active seeker. The missile can engage stealth aircraft, cruise missiles, and precision guided bombs.

The Russians have enough time to develop their own fifth-generation aircraft with enhanced features. The Russians are also using plasma technology creating stealth characteristics on aircraft without the design technology. Thats why many Russian aircraft were not detected by carrier groups until they were right on the group.

 

[qwerty223]

Yes the russian PESA's are very good, Ibis in particular. However AESA's are more advanced in several ways and also in general more capable. Thats why there is a steady progression, worldwide, from MSA's to PESA's to AESA's. Ibis may be the most capable PESA out there (and I stress MAY) but the nature of PESA's means they lack LPI ability, and they lack en electronic atack capability. Anyways your statement indicates that your critisising me because you dont like what i said because your fundimentaly mistaken in the above statement. I never stated that the russian radars were bad only that the APG 77 was better, and it IS.

The fact is that the russians are at 1st gen stealth, the americans are at 4th gen, what does that tell you? That tells me they have sweet *%$# all experiance with LO on a high performance platform. Look at the forward fusilage, looks pretty damn conventional dosnt it??? No sharp curves or allong the horizontal plane??? Now if the design was going to get radically different then its not the same platform is it??? It looks like a typhoon, it has no obvious stealth features, so i wouldnt be suprised if its frontal aspect RCS is in the ball park of that little, slender typhoon. Now is that so unreasonable or am i just being "US biased"...

Well, in fact you are "US biased".
You took the Americans as "standard".
1) AESA is the best choice if we eye on absolute performance, but practically it isn't so simple.Furthermore, each nation has a different way to manage their defence. It is not necessary to standardize them into "American Standard".

2)Again, you dint get my point of view on the 1.44/typhoon. As of 1.44, its just a very early idea demonstrator, cant believe you actually took it as the symbol of the Russian achievement. I am pretty sure Lockheed too had few of these YT22 ancestor built that does not look any close to a final F22. Even so, Russian may had approach another path to achieve stealthiness, need not to be the "American way". While Typhoon, obviously, it doesn't aim to be a stealth plane, regardless how "far behind" the Europeans are.

 

[gf0012-aust]

With the S-400 air defense system and a follow-on that is even better the F-22 has a lot to fear. The S-400 missile system can operate being fully jammed. The interceptor missile uses a home-on-jam mode and also has an active seeker. The missile can engage stealth aircraft, cruise missiles, and precision guided bombs..

and the evidence for all of this is where?

The Russians have enough time to develop their own fifth-generation aircraft with enhanced features. The Russians are also using plasma technology creating stealth characteristics on aircraft without the design technology. Thats why many Russian aircraft were not detected by carrier groups until they were right on the group.

the CV overflight has been somewhat embellished for quite a while.
however, unless its in a declared state of play, or at war, then anyone can fly any aircraft over anyone elses assets (esp in international waters).Perhaps we should trot out NATO overflight photos and use that as an example of russian defence systems not working (I think not). an overflight over benign assets is hardly something to get excited about. The overflight example is a pretty poor example of people making bad assumptions about capability and completely ignoring the circumstances of the event.

Please point to any credible tech reference that shows plasma employed at work, deployed or comparitively tested. More to the point show any of us any photos of any russian aircraft that have plasma generators and their locations on the airframe (hint: there are none).

In addition, I'd be fascinated to see how plasma masking handles various sensor types - because it sure can't play hide the sausage from IR sensors.