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This is a discussion on Indonesian Aero News within the Air Force & Aviation forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Frm what I gather, that budget is for procurement of F-5 replacement. They (Mindef and AF) already know that the ...


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Old May 3rd, 2017   #811
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Frm what I gather, that budget is for procurement of F-5 replacement. They (Mindef and AF) already know that the amount of Aircraft they can get is only around 8-12 (depends on aircraft and the deal). Whether this is for 1st batch or not is not clear.

Indonesian Defence procurement so far as I know differentiate budget for platform, maintanance, upgrade and armaments. Thus as you can see before it's not uncommon for Indonesian Armed Forces bought Platform and armaments on seperate deals. This caused mostly budget must set seperately.

Like for that 24 ex USAF F-16 C/D..the budget for acquiaring them is set as upgrade budget since the platform it self got it free from US. Recent example is on Sniper ATP..actually the US DSCA already include Sniper as part of F-16 C/D deal, including AIM 9x, AIM 120, and Maverics..but implementation done seperately since budgets is set seperately. Thus each of them will required seperate contracts.

Is not the most ideal way to prepared budgets, but that's how the Parliement and administrations work in Indonesia.

Add:

Frm what I heard frm unofficial sources in Ministry of Finance..Mindef already asked budget to upgrade 10 existing F-16A/B Blk 15 OCU to the same standard of that 24 ex USAF C/D Blk 25 that upgraded to Blk 52 avionics/electronics standard.

They aimed to get 2 sq of blk 52 standard F-16 (called F-16 52ID)..thus they do have plan to keep maintain and upgrade the F-16 untill beyod 2025. The Flankers also going to be upgraded..so far 4 already in Belarus for Upgrade.

Frm media, seems the AF are not planning to upgrade Hawk 200 more than present conditions. Only bought neccesary parts to make them operational for additional few years before they can replace it. The AF talk in media that potential FA-50 as Hawk replacement. While the existing LIFT T-50 will be upgraded to TA-50 standard to give them secondary attack role frm their primary role as LIFT.

The Lock-Mart seems offering newly build F-16V in competition with Rosoboron Su-35 as F-5 replacement.

Anyway got this picture frm last year exercise in Natuna. Seems by the arsenal wise, the Flankers is the most complete one in Indonesian AF inventory. At least frm the picture it's already equiped with R-27. Thus if the AIM-120 come the AF will have 2 seperate BVR for Flankers and Vipers.

Wondering though if they can make Flankers fires AIM-120 and the Vipers fires R-27. Not likely since don't think they can able to get the code to open US or Russian system, unless they can crack it.

Seems the picture also shown R-77 (between R-27 and R-73)..but I'm not quite sure on that.
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Last edited by Ananda; May 3rd, 2017 at 11:45 PM.
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Old May 4th, 2017   #812
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Frm what I gather, that budget is for procurement of F-5 replacement. They (Mindef and AF) already know that the amount of Aircraft they can get is only around 8-12 (depends on aircraft and the deal). Whether this is for 1st batch or not is not clear.

Indonesian Defence procurement so far as I know differentiate budget for platform, maintanance, upgrade and armaments. Thus as you can see before it's not uncommon for Indonesian Armed Forces bought Platform and armaments on seperate deals. This caused mostly budget must set seperately.

Like for that 24 ex USAF F-16 C/D..the budget for acquiaring them is set as upgrade budget since the platform it self got it free from US. Recent example is on Sniper ATP..actually the US DSCA already include Sniper as part of F-16 C/D deal, including AIM 9x, AIM 120, and Maverics..but implementation done seperately since budgets is set seperately. Thus each of them will required seperate contracts.

Is not the most ideal way to prepared budgets, but that's how the Parliement and administrations work in Indonesia.

Add:

Frm what I heard frm unofficial sources in Ministry of Finance..Mindef already asked budget to upgrade 10 existing F-16A/B Blk 15 OCU to the same standard of that 24 ex USAF C/D Blk 25 that upgraded to Blk 52 avionics/electronics standard.

They aimed to get 2 sq of blk 52 standard F-16 (called F-16 52ID)..thus they do have plan to keep maintain and upgrade the F-16 untill beyod 2025. The Flankers also going to be upgraded..so far 4 already in Belarus for Upgrade.

Frm media, seems the AF are not planning to upgrade Hawk 200 more than present conditions. Only bought neccesary parts to make them operational for additional few years before they can replace it. The AF talk in media that potential FA-50 as Hawk replacement. While the existing LIFT T-50 will be upgraded to TA-50 standard to give them secondary attack role frm their primary role as LIFT.

The Lock-Mart seems offering newly build F-16V in competition with Rosoboron Su-35 as F-5 replacement.

Anyway got this picture frm last year exercise in Natuna. Seems by the arsenal wise, the Flankers is the most complete one in Indonesian AF inventory. At least frm the picture it's already equiped with R-27. Thus if the AIM-120 come the AF will have 2 seperate BVR for Flankers and Vipers.

Wondering though if they can make Flankers fires AIM-120 and the Vipers fires R-27. Not likely since don't think they can able to get the code to open US or Russian system, unless they can crack it.

Seems the picture also shown R-77 (between R-27 and R-73)..but I'm not quite sure on that.
If they do that, they will be in breach of ITARS Regulations imposed by the State Department and you can say goodbye to any further US support for the platforms Indonesia has already acquired and goodby to any chance of further US equipment acquisitions until the issue is resolved...

I think the diverse acquisition sources is fair enough from a geo-political viewpoint and enough of a complex challenge to maintain and operate without trying to mix and match between the two...
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Old May 4th, 2017   #813
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If they do that, they will be in breach of ITARS Regulations imposed by the State Department and you can say goodbye to any further US support for the platforms Indonesia has already acquired and goodby to any chance of further US equipment acquisitions until the issue is resolved...
Thanks..I suspect there's agreement frm Supplier (especially US) that prohibitted their system to be tampered with. Just forgot what.

I don't know if Russian has that kind of prohibition for their system.

Curious, if you developed your own system and make it compatible for both US and Russian missiles, is it going to breach ITARS ?
Why I asked this, since some supplier like Saab frm what i gather is offering services to some countries that want to build their own system. If not mistaken Israel Rafael also offered that..

Say in ROK-Indonesia Project of KFX/IFX..they build their own system with help frm non us suplier like Saab, Rafael, or Sagem and made it compatible with US missiles (caused it's the missiles that are more available)..then also make it open to be compatible with 'say' Russian missiles ( which also much available in market)..make it an open system..

Will it create problem under ITARS ? Will US then prohibited selling missiles to the project caused it's using US missiles on non US system (thus not under their controlled regime)..?

Last edited by Ananda; May 4th, 2017 at 02:30 AM.
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Old May 4th, 2017   #814
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Well, the IRIS-T can be used on all aircrafts which operates the AIM-9.
And about the photo you've posted, from left to right: Kh-31, Kh-29, R-27, R-77, R-73 and a rocketpod for S-8. Thanks for sharing btw...
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Old May 4th, 2017   #815
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Thanks..I suspect there's agreement frm Supplier (especially US) that prohibitted their system to be tampered with. Just forgot what.

I don't know if Russian has that kind of prohibition for their system.

Curious, if you developed your own system and make it compatible for both US and Russian missiles, is it going to breach ITARS ?
Why I asked this, since some supplier like Saab frm what i gather is offering services to some countries that want to build their own system. If not mistaken Israel Rafael also offered that..

Say in ROK-Indonesia Project of KFX/IFX..they build their own system with help frm non us suplier like Saab, Rafael, or Sagem and made it compatible with US missiles (caused it's the missiles that are more available)..then also make it open to be compatible with 'say' Russian missiles ( which also much available in market)..make it an open system..

Will it create problem under ITARS ? Will US then prohibited selling missiles to the project caused it's using US missiles on non US system (thus not under their controlled regime)..?
Such things can be negotiated, Australia put the English ASRAAM missile onto our Hornets and Israeli Elta jamming pods, so non-US systems 'can' be integrated, but they obviously have to be cleared for installation on US platforms.

It would depend greatly on the negotiated end-user certificates and what is allowed under the various agreements.
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Old May 5th, 2017   #816
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Skyflash was integrated on F-4, Aspide on F-104S, IRIS-T is integrated on F-16 & F-18. AIM-7 & AIM-9 have been integrated with several non-US aircraft. AMRAAM has been integrated on Sea Harrier, Tornado, Typhoon, Gripen. ASRAAM on F-18.

And so on.
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Old May 19th, 2017   #817
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Indonesian Army Apache

Apache Puspenerbad Jalani Uji Terbang - Majalah Angkasa Online

Frm Angkasa magazine online site. Indonesian Army AH-64E (Angkasa seems mistaken call it AH-64D)..conduct flight trial in Boeing facility. Report says that 3 will be delivered this year, and the rest 5 will be delivered next year. Media talk also on option for another 8 AH-64 to make it full sq, but that's unconfirmed.

Frm what I gather, Army Aviation (Penerbad in Indonesian), will operated those AH-64 in a hybrid squadron with MI-35.
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Old May 19th, 2017   #818
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Further development on Indonesian AF Su-35 procurement saga.

Indonesia considers bartering rubber for Su-35 fighters | Jane's 360

This's already happen couple days ago, but I only posted today since this is the first english article on the matter that I found. The move for geeting USD 600 mio rubber deal with Russia, is part of regulation in Indonesian defense procurement which basically says that any defence procurement has to gain some portion of the deal in Tech Transfer, or Local Industry participation. However if this can't be concluded, then trade barter can be consider.

Seems the 2nd option is being considered, as frm I heard Russian did not want to give local Industry participation considering Indonesia only buy 8 SU-35. The deal reported USD 1.14 Bio for 8 Su-35, but if the report correct, also included supply parts, training, and Armament.

TNI-AU indicated that the procurement eventually for 16 plane, indicating another deal batch is possible.
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Old May 20th, 2017   #819
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Further development on Indonesian AF Su-35 procurement saga.

Indonesia considers bartering rubber for Su-35 fighters | Jane's 360

This's already happen couple days ago, but I only posted today since this is the first english article on the matter that I found. The move for geeting USD 600 mio rubber deal with Russia, is part of regulation in Indonesian defense procurement which basically says that any defence procurement has to gain some portion of the deal in Tech Transfer, or Local Industry participation. However if this can't be concluded, then trade barter can be consider.
Considering that last year Russia claims to want to barter for 80 thousand tonnes of rubber with Thailand and then nothing was ever heard of it again, I am skeptical that Russia is serious about the barter.
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Old May 20th, 2017   #820
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Considering that last year Russia claims to want to barter for 80 thousand tonnes of rubber with Thailand and then nothing was ever heard of it again, I am skeptical that Russia is serious about the barter.
Besides that, rubber worth of $600.000.000, thats a lot.... I dont think the Russians need so much rubber :-)
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Old May 20th, 2017   #821
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Well..will see about that..this administrations now assign Trade Minister and State Owned Trading Company to gather crumb rubber with that amount..and in same time conclude the deal with the Russian on trade barter.

Frm what I gather, the contract for Su-35 will be signed on parralel deal with Rubber Trade. As Tonnyc mentioned, the Russian is not heard clossing the trade rubber deal with Thailand, then we see what this deal conclusion is.

For one thing, since the Russian did not one to involved local industry in this particullar armament deal with Indonesia, then trade barter is the only other option available under current arms procurement regulation.

For my self, I just wondered if this proposed trade barter deal is the last way out for Su-35 procurement and Pro-Russian arms procurement factions in Indonesia current administration..
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Old May 27th, 2017   #822
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End of road for AW 101 in Indonesia ?

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-i...-idUSKBN18M1B9

https://m.detik.com/news/infografis/...at-petinggi-au

Panglima TNI: Helikopter AW-101 Merlin tidak sesuai spesifikasi - ANTARA News

The different articles from Reuters, Antara News Agency, and detik online..all related to corruption/graft scandal related to procurement of AW 101 for Indonesian AF (TNI-AU).

As mentioned on previous posts related to AW 101 saga in Indonesia, frm begining AW 101 procurement by TNI-AU already faced hurdles frm the initial one AW 101 for VIP/Presidential purposed is being rejected by President himself that considered to still used existing Super Puma VIP being assembled and part produced by DI/IAe.

TNI-AU insistance then to used AW-101 for Combat SAR/Transport stating it's equiped with ramp doors and can trasported more soldiers compared to Airbus/IAe offered of Caracal. However their insistance that shown on 1 example being delivered to Jkt,shown that AW 101 did not equiped by ramp door, instead with tail door used by VIP version.

This raised suspicions that TNI-AU already commited procurement outside procedures, which to safe the deal they converted the VIP version to troop version with Leonarfo agreement, but the result still AW 101 that not meet military specs for Combat SAR/ Military Tranport versions of AW 101.

Furthermore the TNI-AU brass insistance to bring the sole AW 101 to Jakarta even without the specs as promised by them, raised alarm in Corruption Watch Agency (KPK) and push Mindef and Indonesian Military High Command to hold the induction of that AW 101 to active duty,and pursue iregularity probe on the deal.

With this AW now part Leonardo already faced second corruption scandal in Asia for AW 101 campaign,as they faced simillar hurdle in India 3 years ago.

Pictures bellow frm local forum shown the tail door of AW 101 sole example that being delivered, whille it should be in the form of Ramp Door as promissed by TNI-AU brass for Combat SAR/Military Transport versions.
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Old May 27th, 2017   #823
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https://www.reuters.com/article/us-i...-idUSKBN18M1B9

https://m.detik.com/news/infografis/...at-petinggi-au

Panglima TNI: Helikopter AW-101 Merlin tidak sesuai spesifikasi - ANTARA News

The different articles from Reuters, Antara News Agency, and detik online..all related to corruption/graft scandal related to procurement of AW 101 for Indonesian AF (TNI-AU).

As mentioned on previous posts related to AW 101 saga in Indonesia, frm begining AW 101 procurement by TNI-AU already faced hurdles frm the initial one AW 101 for VIP/Presidential purposed is being rejected by President himself that considered to still used existing Super Puma VIP being assembled and part produced by DI/IAe.

TNI-AU insistance then to used AW-101 for Combat SAR/Transport stating it's equiped with ramp doors and can trasported more soldiers compared to Airbus/IAe offered of Caracal. However their insistance that shown on 1 example being delivered to Jkt,shown that AW 101 did not equiped by ramp door, instead with tail door used by VIP version.

This raised suspicions that TNI-AU already commited procurement outside procedures, which to safe the deal they converted the VIP version to troop version with Leonarfo agreement, but the result still AW 101 that not meet military specs for Combat SAR/ Military Tranport versions of AW 101.

Furthermore the TNI-AU brass insistance to bring the sole AW 101 to Jakarta even without the specs as promised by them, raised alarm in Corruption Watch Agency (KPK) and push Mindef and Indonesian Military High Command to hold the induction of that AW 101 to active duty,and pursue iregularity probe on the deal.

With this AW now part Leonardo already faced second corruption scandal in Asia for AW 101 campaign,as they faced simillar hurdle in India 3 years ago.

Pictures bellow frm local forum shown the tail door of AW 101 sole example that being delivered, whille it should be in the form of Ramp Door as promissed by TNI-AU brass for Combat SAR/Military Transport versions.
All these problems and embarresments caused by some corrupt morons....
There was even an article in the Airforces Monthly of April about it.
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Old May 29th, 2017   #824
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This AW 101 saga shows how 'bad' coordination within current Jokowi administration on defence procurement. What made laugh that some guys in local forum try to blame this misshap like the AW 101 procurement to previous admin. That really shown how 'redicolous' the present Admin and their supporters to justified their wrong doing.

How you can blame previous admin when all the procurement process happen in Jokowi admin. AW offered the deal after their saga in India, and that happen after 2014, thus in Jokowi era. This simply shown despite their supporters in forum and media try to potraid this administration 'so called' clean procurement..but in reality showing that too many factions with difference agenda 'played' in overall defence procurement process.

Resulted that the procurements practically only work mostly to finish contract frm previous admin..whille the procurement contracts in their own era continue protracted and shown bad coordination...this in the condition that current administration actually have larger defence budget that the previous one.
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Old May 29th, 2017   #825
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I on the other hand do not blame the current admin or the previous one. The current admin very rarely interfere in military affairs. In general the Widodo government admits that he is not familiar with military matters and trusts that the MoD and the armed forces know what they are doing.

Turns out that they don't. Too bad. Perhaps after the current heads of the various services retire, the next generation of armed forces chiefs will be better.

Oh, wait, if they're all like Agus then I'm pinning my hope on the generation after that.
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