Go Back   DefenceTalk Forum - Military & Defense Forums > Global Defense & Military > Air Force & Aviation

Defense News
Land, Air & Naval Forces






Military Photos
Latest Military Pictures
Defense Reports
Aerospace & Defence


Indian Military Aviation; News, Updates & Discussions

This is a discussion on Indian Military Aviation; News, Updates & Discussions within the Air Force & Aviation forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by Twinblade OTOH, GF, can you speculate on as to why is the spares situation with Russia deteriorating ...


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old June 7th, 2011   #16
Grumpy Old Man
General
gf0012-aust's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 17,997
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twinblade View Post
OTOH, GF, can you speculate on as to why is the spares situation with Russia deteriorating ? My sources tell me money is not an issue, Indians are ready to pay what Russians are asking for. The problem is more severe with Ilyushin and Migoyan than with Sukhoi. Migoyan might not getting much orders but Ilyushin might just have kicked themselves out of the IAF tanker competition. Too bad IAF selected IL-76 as the platform for Phalcon AEWCS.
regular reliable supply has always been a problem. money hasn't been an issue so I would guess that its the same old inefficient supply chain problem

eg I worked in a number of companies (and had my own for a while) where we/I would regularly be approached and asked to act as a broker to source parts.

with my own company I was asked to source components for BMP's, BTR's T-72's, Mig-27's and Ilyushin Mays/Coots

My indian contacts were always seeking extra suppliers to balance out what they regarded as a russian supplier reliability problem. - it didn't help that official russian supply prices were over inflated.
________________
A corollary of Finagle's Law, similar to Occam's Razor, says:

"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
http://au.linkedin.com/pub/gary-fairlie/1/28a/2a2
http://cofda.wordpress.com/

gf a.k.a. ROBOPIMP T5C
gf0012-aust is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 7th, 2011   #17
Defense Enthusiast
Captain
dragonfire's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 725
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by gf0012-aust View Post
it didn't help that official russian supply prices were over inflated.
I have always wondered about this issue. Why does often one see inflation of prices on contracts already signed, while global recession, gas prices and inflation could be blamed to a certain extent, i have always felt that Russian end-supply costs in the last decade for the same products have sky rocketed from the originally signed-up costs.

The Su-30MKI now is costing over a Hundred Mill $ (although this could be because of yet un-specified upgrades ) whereas earlier it was only a fraction of the same. Same case with the Gorshkov deal etc

OTOH the American and European products seem to come with very high costs from the beginning (flabbergastingly so) but they don't seem to have the problem of inflation of already contracted deals
dragonfire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 7th, 2011   #18
Just Hatched
Private
No Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Punjab
Posts: 6
Threads:
India to buy 10 Boeing C-17 heavy-lift aircraft

Welcoming India's decision to buy 10 Boeing C-17 heavy-lift aircraft for its Air Force, US-India business body on Monday said it is a testament to New Delhi's confidence in having the US as its long-term defence partner.
vijayender is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 7th, 2011   #19
Super Moderator
General
Feanor's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Under your bed. No seriously, take a look.
Posts: 14,997
Threads:
That's a result of lowballing the initial contracts, as well as in many cases a real un-anticipated growth of costs because of poor state of production facilities. To be honest I'm not sure what's going on with the MKI cost spike, but with the Gorshkov those two seem to be the main culprits.
Feanor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 7th, 2011   #20
Defense Enthusiast
Sergeant
surpreme's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Newport News VA
Posts: 244
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by vijayender View Post
Welcoming India's decision to buy 10 Boeing C-17 heavy-lift aircraft for its Air Force, US-India business body on Monday said it is a testament to New Delhi's confidence in having the US as its long-term defence partner.
Good choice this will help India Air Force alot. Do you know what the details of the deal like training, maintainance, and spare parts? Part of any good deal requires that you get know how to maintain and to operating them on your own.
surpreme is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 8th, 2011   #21
Defense Enthusiast
Captain
dragonfire's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 725
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor View Post
That's a result of lowballing the initial contracts,
Yup thats what i thought too, but as time has proven this is a self defeating model, also probably the Indian Attitude of Bargain hunting or max benefit for least cost outlook wouldnt have helped either.

But i feel India today is very keen on buying relevant & required products and has the money for it, even if it globally considered expensive, however the expectations from a supplier has also gone up, Russian supplier agencies need to catch up to the change in the Indian procurement standards, as now India has the capability to choose from American and or European entities.

The cancellation of the Joint Exercises is very un-professional and if related to the recent trend of Indian defense purchases going global then it is a very poor attitude, instead of backlashing the attitude should be to ramp up the capabilities and understand the change in the scenario and come up with better results as suppliers.

As of now this change is required to keep the Indo-Russian defense cooperations alive and take it to the next level where the historical relationships are supported by current world dynamics.
dragonfire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 8th, 2011   #22
Defense Enthusiast
Sergeant
Twinblade's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 290
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonfire View Post
The Su-30MKI now is costing over a Hundred Mill $ (although this could be because of yet un-specified upgrades ) whereas earlier it was only a fraction of the same. Same case with the Gorshkov deal etc
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor View Post
That's a result of lowballing the initial contracts, as well as in many cases a real un-anticipated growth of costs because of poor state of production facilities. To be honest I'm not sure what's going on with the MKI cost spike, but with the Gorshkov those two seem to be the main culprits.
Here is a news report on the price hike for the last batch of 42 Mki's ordered
YouTube - ‪Russia hikes Sukhoi prices‬‏
If i recall correctly, those 42 were ordered from Russia and not to be license produced in India. The license production agreement was for 140 aircraft, later increased to 180. This order was over the existing order.

There are time limits (and restriction by numbers as in this case) for repeat orders under contracts, beyond which any order is treated as a fresh order and price has to be renegotiated.

180 Mki's ordered $40 mil a pop till 2007 is very cheap. $40 mil might not even get you a Gripen NG in 2011.

Besides, the devil is always in the detail. Who knows this might include some sort of a fee for integrating Indian weapons and ammunition on the whole flanker fleet, or some sort of an R&D fee for future upgrades.
Twinblade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 11th, 2011   #23
Junior Member
Private First Class
No Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: The Hague
Posts: 90
Threads:
Maybe I should ask this in another thread. But is there any indication that Russian society will be able to produce sufficient personnell to improve the state of its (arms) industry any time soon? I mean are young people being educated? Are there enough young people to take over the baton? Is Russian society in general able to improve?

You can't make arms when your workers are starving, and the young people are sick and poorly educated. A defence industry is a national project with national interests, and it depends on direct input of capital from the state. That is financial as wel as social.

I don't see a lot of bright spots for Russia here, and the decline of their arms industry is ongoing. Perhaps India should be looking away from russia even more?
Toptob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 11th, 2011   #24
Super Moderator
General
Feanor's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Under your bed. No seriously, take a look.
Posts: 14,997
Threads:
Some companies can attract skilled young labor, most can't. Is there potential for it? Yes. Will it happen? Not all that likely.
Feanor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 12th, 2011   #25
Senior Member
Lieutenant Colonel
Haavarla's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Norway
Posts: 1,192
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toptob View Post
Maybe I should ask this in another thread. But is there any indication that Russian society will be able to produce sufficient personnell to improve the state of its (arms) industry any time soon? I mean are young people being educated? Are there enough young people to take over the baton? Is Russian society in general able to improve?

You can't make arms when your workers are starving, and the young people are sick and poorly educated. A defence industry is a national project with national interests, and it depends on direct input of capital from the state. That is financial as wel as social.

I don't see a lot of bright spots for Russia here, and the decline of their arms industry is ongoing. Perhaps India should be looking away from russia even more?
Sukhoi is addressing this issue.



"Employees KnAAPO get new home
10.06.2011
In the near future in the Leninsky district on the street. Kalinina begin construction of a new apartment building for employees of OAO KNAAPO. Talking about his erection is a long time, but this year the construction of housing complex was approved by the Board of Directors of Komsomolsk-on-Amur aviation production association.

The issue of building a new home for workers in the field of constant attention deputy of the Legislative Duma of Khabarovsk Krai Andrey Viktorovich Klimov. He was the generator of the idea of ​​construction of the object.

- Today, the task of providing citizens with housing costs in the first place among the urgent problems of Komsomolsk, so building a new home - is extremely important for komsomolchan project, - said A. Klimov. - The main task now - to ensure the organizational issues, including obtaining design estimates, the definition of a contractor building the organization, building a system of co-construction of the house.

At present JSC "KNAAPO contract with Komsomolskgorproektom" to design a 200-apartment building with total area of ​​13,400 square meters. meters. Construction of the house will be held in three phases. The first phase includes 60 apartments with a total area of ​​3,420 sq.m: 15 - bedroom (the area of ​​each apartment is 72 sq.m.), 30 - one bedroom (60 sqm), 15 - one bedroom (36 sq.m.). In the construction of the second part of 100 flats area 6048 square meters. m: 20 - two-bedroom, 60 - one bedroom, 20 - one bedroom. And the third place - it contains 40 apartments and an area of ​​2,160 square meters. m: 30 - and 10 one-bedroom - one bedroom. Territory near the house will be landscaped, equipped with lounges and outdoor games, sometimes parking area.

At present, corrected list of employees of the air force in need of better housing conditions. Sociological survey among factory workers showed that 300 out of 1000 respondents willing to participate in building a house.

Funding for the construction of a residential complex will be held as follows: 40% - interest free housing loan, provided by JSC KNAAPO future tenants (company employees) 60% - pay homeowners the financial means on the basis of a corporate mortgage on favorable terms. Now on the mortgage being negotiated with leading banks in the Russian Federation. Base cost of 1 square meter for the residents is planned within 35 thousand rubles.
With proper funding the first phase of construction will begin in October this year and completed in June 2012 to 80-year anniversary of Komsomolsk. The second stage is scheduled to begin in July 2012 and be completed in September 2013. Terms of the third stage - October 2013 - May 2014."


"700 students have passed the practice on KNAAPO "
09.06.2011
"700 students of universities, students, colleges and Komsomolsk Aviastroitelny Lyceum held last year in the industrial practice of the holding "Sukhoi" Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aircraft Production Association named after Yu Gagarin. To ensure the company promising young staff created a system of training future professionals: School - Lycee Aircraft - Technical College, Technical University. For the training of the "narrow" profile of the plant has concluded a long-term contract with the Komsomolsk-on-Amur State Technical University, where students study for two years of basic disciplines, and special items - in the leading universities in Moscow, St. Petersburg, Krasnoyarsk and other cities. Currently, two-phase program of education trained 53 students.

Sukhoi pays great attention to training young professionals. Thanks to the last 10 years the activities of its divisions are constantly replenished by young skilled engineering staff. Annually to work in the company come more than 300 young professionals. They actively participate in the implementation of priority civilian and military projects, and in some areas have leading roles. Their share among the engineering staff now stands at 32 percent. Work with youth in a "dry" feel is especially important in solving the problems of innovative development. The company has a system of attraction, retention and professional development of young professionals. Held scientific-practical conferences, develops cooperation with partners, subcontractors, experts trained mid-level management within the productive activities are organized competitions "Best Young Manager of the holding" and "Best in the specialty." Work with students of profile high schools. Annually in conjunction with the Moscow Aviation Institute (MAI) held the Olympics in aviation to high school students. The winners will receive grants for training and then employment in the department. Created the group targeted training of the students third year of MAI (selection is up to the Olympics in aviation among the junior students). Students are in the company and its factories manufacturing practices that allow them to get acquainted with best practices for the latest models of aircraft. Program motivated students a stipend Sukhoi and salary while working at the plant in combination. Young professionals annually participate in the contest for the best scientific and technical work. The company has created and actively works council of young specialists."
Haavarla is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 12th, 2011   #26
Defense Enthusiast
Sergeant
Twinblade's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 290
Threads:
Finally, India's Carrier Fighter Ready To Fly

NP-1 prototype of NLCA (trainer version based on Mk1) is ready to fly
Twinblade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 12th, 2011   #27
Super Moderator
General
Feanor's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Under your bed. No seriously, take a look.
Posts: 14,997
Threads:
KnAAPO, and Sukhoi in general are better off in this regard. Sevmash on the other hand is fairly screwed. Almaz-Antey isn't doing great.
Feanor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 14th, 2011   #28
Defense Enthusiast
Sergeant
Twinblade's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 290
Threads:
India to buy more than 16 C-17 airlifters

Quote:
The Indian government has just cleared the deal for 10 C-17s for $4.1 billion, and together with another six aircraft, the deal would be for around $6.5 billion, inclusive of the 30 percent offset clause.
Quote:
Reliable sources, however, say the IAF could opt for eight more aircraft, in which case the deal for the C-17s could touch about $10 billion or so.
IAF must be really pissed with Ilyushin's after sales support, such a massive order right before Ilyushin is about to introduce its new heavy lift aircraft, thereby totally killing its chances of competitive trials with C-17 and being L1 in the tender process.
Twinblade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 15th, 2011   #29
Super Moderator
General
Feanor's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Under your bed. No seriously, take a look.
Posts: 14,997
Threads:
What new heavy lift are you talking about? The Il-476?
Feanor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 15th, 2011   #30
Defense Enthusiast
Sergeant
Twinblade's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 290
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor View Post
What new heavy lift are you talking about? The Il-476?
yes, i believe it will be available in market post 2014, right ?
Twinblade is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:53 PM.