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Flanker Export Thread

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Old December 15th, 2011   #76
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PM visit: India to buy 42 ‘upgraded’ Sukhois - Express India

The deal for 42 "Super-Mki" and upgrades for remaining Mki's to be signed soon.
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Old December 16th, 2011   #77
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PM visit: India to buy 42 ‘upgraded’ Sukhois - Express India

The deal for 42 "Super-Mki" and upgrades for remaining Mki's to be signed soon.
It just got signed, pushing this years numbers up quite a bit.
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Old December 16th, 2011   #78
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Will the Super MKI come out after the Su-30SM?
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Old December 17th, 2011   #79
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Hmm? What do you mean "come out"?
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Old December 17th, 2011   #80
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Sorry for the short Q.
Will IAPO produce both the Su-30SM and Super MKI at the same time or..?
Isn't there allready two Su-30SM on the floor, meaning the Su-30SM production has just started?

Last edited by Haavarla; December 17th, 2011 at 08:30 AM.
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Old December 17th, 2011   #81
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Two prototypes are to be handed over this year for testing and evaluation, as well as initial training (probably Lipetsk or GLITs).
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Old December 18th, 2011   #82
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does anyone know the RCS of the SS?
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Old December 18th, 2011   #83
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Uganda and Malaysia could also order a few more in 2012.
Not if the Royal Malaysian Air Force [RMAF] has a say in it as it has never been really keen on Russian made fighters. Both the Fulcrums and Flankers were political decisions, forced on the RMAF by the government. The main reason the Fulcrums were bought in 1993 was because of its price, a barter deal which the Russians accepted and the prospect of developing greater economic ties with Russia. The Flanker deal was also very political, as the Russians offered an offset package and a slot in their space programme for a Malaysian to go into space..... The RMAF's main preference remains the Super Hornet.

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Old December 18th, 2011   #84
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That might be true..
But if a new offer from Sukhoi/IAPO are given, a real generous one.
Like a aka 'Super MKI' offer to a sweet price.
Or a total package with some Yak-130 and/or MS-21 airliner.

http://www.irkut.com/en/news/press_r...x.php?id48=466

Nothing is carved in the stone as of yet.
Let wait and see.
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Old December 18th, 2011   #85
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That might be true..
But if a new offer from Sukhoi/IAPO are given, a real generous one.
Like a aka 'Super MKI' offer to a sweet price.
Or a total package with some Yak-130 and/or MS-21 airliner.

IRKUT Corporation :: Press Release Archives :: MALAYSIAN DEFENSE MINISTER VISITED IRKUTSK AVIATION PLANT

Nothing is carved in the stone as of yet.
Let wait and see.
The issue as I see if, for the RMAF at least, is that they are looking to align themselves with US/US-allied air forces doctrine and conops. Having Russian made fighters can cause problems with what seems to be the desired levels of interoperability both within the RMAF and with the RMAF interacting with friendly and allied air forces. Of course the Russian aircraft could be kitted out with non-Russian avionics and datalinks, but to do so increases the price and there are only a few countries with experience doing such work.

A case in point, the RMAF appears to have been shopping around for some for of AEW to increase the SA beyond what Malaysia has been able to accomplish with ground-based radar stations. It appears that vendors have offered various suggestions, with a Lockheed C-130 variant fitted with AEW radar and stations, NG E-2D Hawkeye, a proposed C-295 AEW and a Saab/Embraer offer mounting the Erieye aboard a RJ-145.

If the RMAF were to make such a purchase, then unless any follow-on fighters are capable of receiving info from such valuable ISR assets, it would mean that Malaysia largely wasted money and capabilies.

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Old December 18th, 2011   #86
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The issue as I see if, for the RMAF at least, is that they are looking to align themselves with US/US-allied air forces doctrine and conops. Having Russian made fighters can cause problems with what seems to be the desired levels of interoperability both within the RMAF and with the RMAF interacting with friendly and allied air forces. Of course the Russian aircraft could be kitted out with non-Russian avionics and datalinks, but to do so increases the price and there are only a few countries with experience doing such work.

A case in point, the RMAF appears to have been shopping around for some for of AEW to increase the SA beyond what Malaysia has been able to accomplish with ground-based radar stations. It appears that vendors have offered various suggestions, with a Lockheed C-130 variant fitted with AEW radar and stations, NG E-2D Hawkeye, a proposed C-295 AEW and a Saab/Embraer offer mounting the Erieye aboard a RJ-145.

If the RMAF were to make such a purchase, then unless any follow-on fighters are capable of receiving info from such valuable ISR assets, it would mean that Malaysia largely wasted money and capabilies.

-Cheers
Um.. like IAF P-8 and A-50I
I don't think this will be a huge problem for Malaysia though.
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Old December 18th, 2011   #87
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Um.. like IAF P-8 and A-50I
I don't think this will be a huge problem for Malaysia though.
There is a rather significant difference between India and Malaysia in terms of defence, industry and technology. India is looking for significant TOT and/or co-development of a number of solutions, amongst them being able to get different pieces of kit to talk to each other. Plus there is an entire economy of scale issue where India is able to do things in numbers which Malaysia cannot.

Now if there Russia was also offering an AEW capability using the A-50 or similar, along with robust datalinks to utilize along with MPA aircraft, the situation would be a bit different. Whether Government will care of not is another story.

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Old December 18th, 2011   #88
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Um.. like IAF P-8 and A-50I
I don't think this will be a huge problem for Malaysia though.
The A-50I has an Israeli radar, and god knows what, for innards. I wouldn't be surprised if it was much easier to equip the A-50I with something compatible then the A-50U.

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The issue as I see if, for the RMAF at least, is that they are looking to align themselves with US/US-allied air forces doctrine and conops. Having Russian made fighters can cause problems with what seems to be the desired levels of interoperability both within the RMAF and with the RMAF interacting with friendly and allied air forces. Of course the Russian aircraft could be kitted out with non-Russian avionics and datalinks, but to do so increases the price and there are only a few countries with experience doing such work.
It would increase the price, but given the extremely competitive prices of Russian fighters, I wonder if this price increase would even matter much? Is it really the price that would decide the issue, or the time it would take (given that the AEW capability, has yet to be chosen, nevermind physically acquired, the same goes for the fighters).

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Not if the Royal Malaysian Air Force [RMAF] has a say in it as it has never been really keen on Russian made fighters. Both the Fulcrums and Flankers were political decisions, forced on the RMAF by the government. The main reason the Fulcrums were bought in 1993 was because of its price, a barter deal which the Russians accepted and the prospect of developing greater economic ties with Russia. The Flanker deal was also very political, as the Russians offered an offset package and a slot in their space programme for a Malaysian to go into space..... The RMAF's main preference remains the Super Hornet.
This is typical of the way Russia likes to do business. I would not be surprised if they offered similar incentives attached to a new MKM deal.
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Old December 18th, 2011   #89
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It would increase the price, but given the extremely competitive prices of Russian fighters, I wonder if this price increase would even matter much? Is it really the price that would decide the issue, or the time it would take (given that the AEW capability, has yet to be chosen, nevermind physically acquired, the same goes for the fighters).
The integration of systems is always the killer - not the tech set. The two most likely countries to do it are the Israelis and the French - and option 1 is gone straight away.

The reality is that option 2 might not get access to all of the US capability, much the same as US companies would get access to French tech sets.
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Old December 18th, 2011   #90
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The A-50I has an Israeli radar, and god knows what, for innards. I wouldn't be surprised if it was much easier to equip the A-50I with something compatible then the A-50U.
I was being a bit more circumspect, but as GF mentioned, the two countries with expertise in adapting Western kit to Russia aircraft are Israel and France, Israel having provided significant help to India for some of their systems. For several reasons, Israeli aid or equipment is not an option for the RMAF. If it were, I would have expected a modified G550 with conformal Elta radar arrays to also have been on offer for the RMAF AEW.

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It would increase the price, but given the extremely competitive prices of Russian fighters, I wonder if this price increase would even matter much? Is it really the price that would decide the issue, or the time it would take (given that the AEW capability, has yet to be chosen, nevermind physically acquired, the same goes for the fighters).
While the platform price increase due to the adaptation might not be significant due to the potentially low price of the green airframe fighters, the platform price alone is not the only consideration. There is the time required to successfully make such modifications or design and install them into green airframes. There is also a significant amount of risk in doing such modification and design work, ranging from full programme failure down to very delayed IOC, with the potential for partial programme failure in between. Hence the importance of having some degree of expertise working on such modifications.

As for the AEW not having been selected yet that is not particularly significant IMO. Two of those on offer are already in operation and datalink capable, including Link 11 and Link 16. The Lockheed offering sounds like work that had been done on the EC-130E for the USCG where an APS-145 (radar used on the E-2 Hawkeye) was mounted onto a Hercules. From what I understand, Lockheed has developed and modular control system for such radar arrays, possibly as a developmental outgrowth from the modular MPS Lockheed developed for the HC-144 Ocean Sentry for the USCG. The one I am not certain of is the EADS offering of an AEW configured C-295 variant, but this is largely due to me just not having heard of it previously. Given the European exposure to AEW systems and datalinks, I am confident that any such offering would be compatible with and provide such capabilities.

The question would then still remain, if the RMAF does get such a system, would a future fighter purchase then be able to make use of an AEW or not? And if not, what could realistically be done to enable to the fighters to make use of it?

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