Go Back   DefenceTalk Forum - Military & Defense Forums > Global Defense & Military > Air Force & Aviation

Defense News
Land, Air & Naval Forces






Military Photos
Latest Military Pictures
Defense Reports
Aerospace & Defence


F-35 - International Participation

This is a discussion on F-35 - International Participation within the Air Force & Aviation forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Basically the SOKORs have come full circle and this time around the ROKAF is driving the bus minus DAPA meddling. ...


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old November 11th, 2013   #76
Defense Enthusiast
Captain
No Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 784
Threads:
Basically the SOKORs have come full circle and this time around the ROKAF is driving the bus minus DAPA meddling. I don't see ROKAF favoring a split order to mitigate the risk of a capability gap if it means acquiring a platform that does not meet the required specs. IIRC SK can avail of production slots in LRIP-9 with deliveries commencing in 2017 but a decision would be required before year-end. A


S. Korea expected to pick Lockheed Martin's F-35 as main fighter jets - Xinhua | English.news.cn

S. Korea expected to pick Lockheed Martin's F-35 as main fighter jets

SEOUL, Nov. 11 (Xinhua) -- South Korea was widely expected to pick the U.S.-based Lockheed Martin's F-35 as its major next- generation fighter jet that will replace aging fleets from 2017, a local newspaper reported on Monday citing government and defense officials.

According to the local daily Chosun Ilbo, the country's Air Force has recently proposed to the Joint Chiefs of Staff to apply higher standards of stealth functions and aviation electronics equipment to the next-generational fighter jet procurement program.

The stricter standards would raise possibility for the Lockheed Martin's F-35 stealth jet to become a sole bidder at the upcoming tender bids, the newspaper said, noting that it may beat other potential bidders, including Boeing's F-15 Silent Eagle and EADS' Eurofighter Tranche 3 Typhoon, in terms of stealth features...
colay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 11th, 2013   #77
Super Moderator
Lieutenant General
RobWilliams's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 2,757
Threads:
4th UK F-35B officially ordered as part of LRIP-7. Most of linked article not related so I quoted the necessary bit

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/r...ier-ramping-up

Quote:
The pictures come on the same day as MOD announces that a fourth Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter aircraft has been ordered from Lockheed Martin. The UK has already taken delivery of 3 Lightning II jets and Royal Navy and RAF pilots are training on the aircraft in the USA.

This fourth jet, which is specially designed to be a test aircraft, will help boost the ongoing training available.
The plan originally had been that BK-1, BK-2 and BK-3 were to be instrumented for testing as the UK's contribution to the OT&E fleet. But now, BK-3 is at MCAS Beaufort.
RobWilliams is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 14th, 2013
dutta
This message has been deleted by Bonza. Reason: spammer
Old November 22nd, 2013   #78
Defense Enthusiast
Captain
No Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 784
Threads:
It appears that it's all over. SK will acquire an initial 40 F-35 in support of it's more aggressive kill-chain capability vs. provocations from the North. This comes after recent news that the ROKAF will be confirming an order next year for 4 Global Hawks that will allow for continuous ISR coverage of. NK for the next couple of decades.




Yonhapnews Agency - Mobile


S. Korea decides to buy 40 Lockheed F-35s from 2018

2013-11-22 15:06



South Korea decided Friday to purchase 40 Lockheed Martin's F-35A stealth fighters for four years starting in 2018, with an option to buy 20 more later depending on the security situation and budget, the Joint Chiefs of Staff (JCS) said.

JCS Chairman Choi Yun-hee held a meeting of top commanders to approve the plan to buy the 40 F-35 Block 3s, which are capable of conducting air-to-air and air-to-ground missions with internal carriage and external stations for missiles and bombs. The software configuration is expected to reach the initial operating capability around 2015, according to the company.

As the F-35 is sold only through the U.S. foreign military sales (FMS) program, the Defense Acquisition Program Administration (DAPA) is expected to purchase the aircraft through a government-to-government deal and without an open bid.

The government-to-government FMS condition requires a foreign government to pay the amount specified by the U.S. government for the F-35s at the time of payment.

The move comes as the Air Force had asked the government to buy the combat aircraft with a lower radar cross section, one of the key stealth functions, and advanced avionic warfare capabilities.

"The F-35A will be used as a strategic weapon to gain a competitive edge and defeat the enemy in the early stage of war," the JCS said. "The South Korean military will also use the aircraft to effectively deal with provocations."

More...
colay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 22nd, 2013   #79
Grumpy Old Man
General
gf0012-aust's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 17,997
Threads:
the fact that sth korea is intending to build 2 x light aircraft carriers - and that No 2 will have a ski jump ramp tends to point to where they're heading as well.....
________________
A corollary of Finagle's Law, similar to Occam's Razor, says:

"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
http://au.linkedin.com/pub/gary-fairlie/1/28a/2a2
http://cofda.wordpress.com/

gf a.k.a. ROBOPIMP T5C
gf0012-aust is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 25th, 2013   #80
Banned Member
Private
No Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: India
Posts: 2
Threads:
One image to compare three variants ....
Attached Images
File Type: jpg AIR_F-35_JSF_Variants_lg.jpg (191.0 KB, 43 views)
ramakrishna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 26th, 2013   #81
Defense Aficionado
Lieutenant General
StingrayOZ's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Sydney
Posts: 2,743
Threads:
I do wonder now the production is underway, the project is extremely low risk, and everyone is happy with on going costs, if we don't see more F-35B orders. Spain, Korea, and Japan would seem likely candidates as all of them have compatible ships in the water or very near to it.

The F-35 is going to be very compelling once more countries get on board. Being able to operate sustained out of any friendly airbase, or friendly carrier, cross training and embedding should be very high, and mixed operational deployments likely.

Regarding Australia's F-18's, the US has been extremely helpful with Australia's need with the longer than expected F-35 arrival and the shorter lives of our classic F-18's. It is nothing that money can't fix. I'm sure if there was a firm commitment to go to an all F-35 fleet the USN would consider a deal. The US could then possible on sell them to a country who is looking at getting something, but the F-35 isn't suitable.
StingrayOZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 26th, 2013   #82
Senior Member
Colonel
No Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Sydney
Posts: 1,365
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by StingrayOZ View Post
I do wonder now the production is underway, the project is extremely low risk, and everyone is happy with on going costs, if we don't see more F-35B orders. Spain, Korea, and Japan would seem likely candidates as all of them have compatible ships in the water or very near to it.

The F-35 is going to be very compelling once more countries get on board. Being able to operate sustained out of any friendly airbase, or friendly carrier, cross training and embedding should be very high, and mixed operational deployments likely.

Regarding Australia's F-18's, the US has been extremely helpful with Australia's need with the longer than expected F-35 arrival and the shorter lives of our classic F-18's. It is nothing that money can't fix. I'm sure if there was a firm commitment to go to an all F-35 fleet the USN would consider a deal. The US could then possible on sell them to a country who is looking at getting something, but the F-35 isn't suitable.

And not to forget the reports earlier this year that Singapore was also supposed to be interested in the B model, so that's another possible user of the B model too.

With the Hornets, I assume you are talking about 'back trading' the Super Hornets to the USN and possibly selling them to a third party?

The SHornets will be around 10 yrs old when the first Sqn of F-35's come into service and probably closer to 15 yrs by the time the last of the Classic Sqn's are replaced.

Then of course there has to be a commitment from Government between now and then to go with the 4th Sqn sooner, but according to the last DWP that's not planned to happen till around 2030, and if the SHornets are replaced around that time they will be 20 years old.

The question is, are 20 year old SHornets worth trading back at that age?
John Newman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 26th, 2013   #83
Defense Aficionado
Lieutenant General
StingrayOZ's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Sydney
Posts: 2,743
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Newman View Post

The question is, are 20 year old SHornets worth trading back at that age?
Well its in the US interests for Australia to buy more new fighters. So I'm sure they could consider several disposal options, even if they just part them out for the USN.

At which time (2030) the B should be quiet a popular model, and perhaps the time to consider if we would want to operate any. While not exactly the same as the A model, they should be more alike than a superhornet is to a hornet, enough that you are effectively flying one model. Even if we don't pursue a carrier of our own, using B models to participate in international efforts may become the most common way to for aircraft to participate. In that frame, we can operate with UK, USN, USMC, Spanish, Italian, Korean, Japanese carrier forces. The LHD have enough aviation capability to train locally. But I don't want to derail this thread into Australian carrier aviation.

With Singapore also possibly ordering B's, Australia's absent interest in the B is notable. We would be the only country in the region with F-35 without the B's, even though we have ships that can operate them (even if just for training).

We were previously very keen to get the 4th squad. I know we have had a whole bunch of governments since then, but if we don't get the 4th squad, we might fall out of sync in terms of aircraft life again compared to allies.

Why keep the Hornets, if they are already knackered.
StingrayOZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 26th, 2013   #84
Grumpy Old Man
General
gf0012-aust's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 17,997
Threads:
the shornets are a bastardised lease - so they can't be "traded back"

they'll either be sent home or disposed of as per FMS provisions and conditions

there's also a sidebar consideration with JSF jumpers - eg the 2 x Sth Korean future light carriers are based on an italian design - so the italians will also be watching with interest
________________
A corollary of Finagle's Law, similar to Occam's Razor, says:

"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
http://au.linkedin.com/pub/gary-fairlie/1/28a/2a2
http://cofda.wordpress.com/

gf a.k.a. ROBOPIMP T5C
gf0012-aust is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 27th, 2013   #85
Defense Enthusiast
Corporal
No Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 189
Threads:
Hidden in the latest news about the F-35 is this doozy from Loren Thompson
S.Korea order would drive F-35 per-plane cost lower | Reuters

Quote:
He said Singapore would likely follow suit with its own orders, followed by Malaysia and possibly New Zealand.
Never mind the NZ Defence minister specifically addressed the F-35 while in the US last month and poured ice-cold water over any suggestion NZ would even be remotely interested.

10 points for being optimistic of an order in the short term I guess
htbrst is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 27th, 2013   #86
Defense Aficionado
Lieutenant General
StingrayOZ's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Sydney
Posts: 2,743
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by gf0012-aust View Post
the shornets are a bastardised lease - so they can't be "traded back"

they'll either be sent home or disposed of as per FMS provisions and conditions

there's also a sidebar consideration with JSF jumpers - eg the 2 x Sth Korean future light carriers are based on an italian design - so the italians will also be watching with interest
Well, I don't know how possible it is, but say perhaps we did give them back over to the USN, so we could jump into the USN or USMC production slots. So we trade a bit of their life to jump the F-35 que.

Interesting about the carriers. Could be an interesting combination for countries looking at purchasing.

However, with China's move into airspace diplomacy, I can imagine the need to be able to enforce ones own airspace in the middle of no where becoming a much greater priority.
StingrayOZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 28th, 2013   #87
Moderator
General
ngatimozart's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Posts: 4,194
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by htbrst View Post
Hidden in the latest news about the F-35 is this doozy from Loren Thompson
S.Korea order would drive F-35 per-plane cost lower | Reuters



Never mind the NZ Defence minister specifically addressed the F-35 while in the US last month and poured ice-cold water over any suggestion NZ would even be remotely interested.

10 points for being optimistic of an order in the short term I guess
Haha, maybe he's going to offer a really good finance deal then. In that case we'll have 24 F35Bs thank you and a side order of fries please.
________________
"There is one immutable truth we cannot prevent; war is coming, we just don’t know when or where." Brigadier Andrew Harrison DSO MBE
ngatimozart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 2nd, 2013   #88
Defense Aficionado
Major General
John Fedup's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Vancouver and Toronto
Posts: 2,337
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by StingrayOZ View Post
I do wonder now the production is underway, the project is extremely low risk, and everyone is happy with on going costs, if we don't see more F-35B orders. Spain, Korea, and Japan would seem likely candidates as all of them have compatible ships in the water or very near to it.

The F-35 is going to be very compelling once more countries get on board. Being able to operate sustained out of any friendly airbase, or friendly carrier, cross training and embedding should be very high, and mixed operational deployments likely.

Regarding Australia's F-18's, the US has been extremely helpful with Australia's need with the longer than expected F-35 arrival and the shorter lives of our classic F-18's. It is nothing that money can't fix. I'm sure if there was a firm commitment to go to an all F-35 fleet the USN would consider a deal. The US could then possible on sell them to a country who is looking at getting something, but the F-35 isn't suitable.
The F-35B does offer more operational flexibility, especially for countries with carriers or LHDs but it comes at a steep price. More importantly the B version carries the most risk and will have higher operational costs. Countries that don't have immediate needs for upgrading their fighter fleets will have time to see how the A and B versions play out. Perhaps the B's higher cost can be justified by proven performance and added flexibility.
John Fedup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 4th, 2013
Juice
This message has been deleted by OPSSG. Reason: A post lacking logic, reason and sources
Old December 4th, 2013   #89
Defense Enthusiast
Captain
No Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 784
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Juice View Post
Anyone know if these new aircraft orders will help to bring down the ever-escalating flyaway costs of the F-35 which have been rising due to order cutbacks thus far?
Absolutely. One of the reasons why the USG was very keen on South Korea selecting the F-35., for example.

Lockheed Martin Corporation : South Korea order would drive F-35 per-plane cost lower | 4-Traders
colay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 4th, 2013
Juice
This message has been deleted by OPSSG. Reason: A post lacking logic, reason and sources
Old December 4th, 2013   #90
Just a bloke
Major General
No Avatar
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 2,264
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Juice View Post
good to hear - thanks! Last I heard about it before this South Korean order, the F-35 programme was in a death spiral with each cut in order numbers resulting in a higher overall cost due to skyrocketing production costs.
When a program is ordering 70+ aircraft a year in LOW RATE initial production, that doesn't exactly scream "death spiral" to most rational people. Lunatics on the internet desperate to try and "prove" their irrational rantings are somehow related to reality would like you to believe that a fighter program building 70 aircraft a year is somehow failing however.

The build rate of Rafale, Gripen, SU-35, PAK-FA and Typhoon combined I doubt reaches this build rate per year, yet for some reason no-one is suggesting these programs are in a "death spiral" and F-35 has always been planned to increase build rate once it enters FRP, beyond 70 aircraft per year up to 200 per year if the full planned rate is achieved.

South Korea hasn't yet ordered any F-35 aircraft but even if they do so tomorrow, those 40 aircraft aren't the difference between any "death spiral" or success. The 1760 that the USAF plans to order will be.
ADMk2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:56 PM.