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F-35 - International Participation

This is a discussion on F-35 - International Participation within the Air Force & Aviation forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Mike Yeo, has a write up " More joy for the F-35 in Asia? " at his blog that covers ...


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Old April 8th, 2013   #16
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Mike Yeo, has a write up "More joy for the F-35 in Asia?" at his blog that covers the acquisition programs for Japan, South Korea and Singapore. Below is a quote from his blog with regard to Singapore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Yeo
...The minister's speech led to a flurry of articles in the media, with Reuters reporting on 14th March that Singapore's upcoming F-35 order was expected to include the F-35B STOVL (Short Take Off Vertical Landing) variant. This was followed by another piece by AOL Defense's Colin Clark who wrote on 25th that Singapore was poised to order 12 F-35Bs within the next 10 days (note: this deadline has since passed) as part of an eventual 75-aircraft F-35B order. Singapore's interest in the F-35B is not new, with reports from back in 2011 (which I covered here) already stating the island-state's interest in the STOVL F-35B.

Singapore's F-35 acquisition is however, more likely to be a longer term project, with the F-35 being unlikely to be ready in time to replace the last handful of Northrop F-5S/T Tiger II interceptors still serving with the RSAF. These are likely to be replaced with further purchases of Boeing F-15SG Eagles, 24 of which are already flying with a Singapore-based squadron and a training detachment based at Mountain Home Air Force Base in the U.S state of Idaho.

Instead I expect the RSAF to order 3 squadrons plus a US-based training detachment of F-35s, totaling between 50-60 aircraft, to replace the RSAF's fleet of Block 52/52+ F-16C/Ds in the 2020-2025 timeframe. As is the normal practice, Singapore will not order the whole lot of F-35s at once but in multiple batches of anywhere from 8-24 aircraft per batch...
He is fairly familiar with the Singapore defence scene and is into aviation photography, with published work.
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Old April 8th, 2013   #17
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It seems like Singapore is buying additional F-15SGs: Singapore’s RSAF Decides to Fly Like An Eagle

...They also want 18 AN/AVS-9(V) Night Vision Goggles, the H-764G GPS with GEM-V Selective Availability Anti-Spoofing Module (SAASM), and Common Munitions Built-in-Test Reprogramming Equipment (CMBRE-Plus) “in support of a Direct Commercial Sale of new F-15SG aircraft.”

In other words, they’re about to buy another 12 F-15SGs as F-5 replacements and grow their fleet to 36, instead of buying 12 F-35Bs that won’t be useful until 2018 or later.


This is quite a surprise as previous reports say they're leaning towards the F-35. Too bad I can't open the DSCA link...
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Old April 8th, 2013   #18
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It seems like Singapore is buying additional F-15SGs: Singapore’s RSAF Decides to Fly Like An Eagle

...They also want 18 AN/AVS-9(V) Night Vision Goggles, the H-764G GPS with GEM-V Selective Availability Anti-Spoofing Module (SAASM), and Common Munitions Built-in-Test Reprogramming Equipment (CMBRE-Plus) “in support of a Direct Commercial Sale of new F-15SG aircraft.”

In other words, they’re about to buy another 12 F-15SGs as F-5 replacements and grow their fleet to 36, instead of buying 12 F-35Bs that won’t be useful until 2018 or later.


This is quite a surprise as previous reports say they're leaning towards the F-35. Too bad I can't open the DSCA link...
Yes, and we have cited Mike's blog post which he also clearly states the opinion that the RSAF fleet will grow beyond 24 F-15SGs, through direct commercial sale. This development is not unexpected and Mike was quoted because he provides context (that the F-5s might be retired soon). It also does not change the fact that Singapore's Minister of Defence has spoken on 12 March 2013; and he said the RSAF is currently evaluating the F-35 for potential acquisition.

With regards to Singapore, there is as yet no FMS notification. And unlike Japan, there is no undue haste for Singapore to acquire the F-35.

You should try reading the threads you post in. [/grins]
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Old April 8th, 2013   #19
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^ I did read that part. It's just that there were other news sources which were saying different, some of which Mr. Yeo also mentioned.
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Old April 8th, 2013   #20
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Mike (aka TheBaseLeg) has a published article on Singapore's F-5s. He is an expert on the RSAF. He tracks RSAF aircraft not only by tail number (the RSAF has been known to change the tail numbers) and he also tracks them by production number. I would be happy to be corrected by him any day.

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Originally Posted by fretburner View Post
^ I did read that part. It's just that there were other news sources which were saying different, some of which Mr. Yeo also mentioned.
Most general news sources have a real problem even understanding the basics of Singapore's defence posture, much less the acquisition history of the RSAF. With regards to the Defense Industry Daily (DID), they not only cite APA misinformation as a source for some of their articles, they also engage in defending junk military science. I have a detailed post in the old F-35 thread, where DID anti-JSF meme was debunked. As stated in the post below, DID has recycled old false information as new, which does no end of good to their credibility. You should have seen that post from a week ago (see below).

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Originally Posted by OPSSG View Post
Journalism used to be an attempt to provide a balanced story. Unfortunately, some of the current reporting on the JSF tries to sell you a point of view that supports a pre-determined meme and we get poor quality journalism that contains known falsehoods to advance the meme.

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Originally Posted by the road runner View Post
It's good to see the JSF family of country's growing ,while more JSF are coming online. I expect to see the "anti JSF", crowd's voices getting louder in the future.
To be clear, most of us welcome informed criticism of the JSF program but we do not condone the passing-off of known falsehoods to advance an anti-F-35 meme. The Defence Industry Daily is a good example is of passing-off of known falsehoods dating back to 2008 to continue to advance an anti-F-35 meme. They are still citing and recycling the same discredited sources, like the Air Power Australia and selling the junk science, as truths. The so called 'RAND study' or Pacific Vision has been consistently used by many idiots, like those from Air Power Australia to misrepresent aircraft capability. The names of Air Power Australia idiots are Kopp, Goon, and Chris Miles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rand
FOR RELEASE
Thursday
September 25, 2008

OFFICE OF MEDIA RELATIONS
703-413-1100 x5117
and 310-451-6913
media@rand.org

Statement Regarding Media Coverage of F-35 Joint Strike Fighter

Andrew Hoehn, Director of RAND Project Air Force, made the following statement today:

“Recently, articles have appeared in the Australian press with assertions regarding a war game in which analysts from the RAND Corporation were involved. Those reports are not accurate. RAND did not present any analysis at the war game relating to the performance of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, nor did the game attempt detailed adjudication of air-to-air combat. Neither the game nor the assessments by RAND in support of the game undertook any comparison of the fighting qualities of particular fighter aircraft.”
These jokers, which now includes the Defence Industry Daily (Feb 10, 2013), because it recycles old, discredited mis-information as new. The following clarifications on Pacific Vision ppt are in order:
(i) It's a ppt of an exercise planning event using planning tools - it has NOTHING - repeat NOTHING to do with tactical detail about planes and their emission footprint - hence extrapolating any tactical results about any plane factored into the simulation is just rubbish.

(ii) The software used in Pacific Vision is Falconview, which is a planning tool and most people from advanced countries are familiar with using software for defence planning. Falconview does not deal with aircraft capability comparisons. For clarity, there is a software that compares the effectiveness of aircraft in air combat BUT IT IS NOT Falconview. Therefore when morons start quoting pointy combat effectiveness based on Falconview, it is based on a complete misunderstanding and comprehension of the software used.

(iii) There are no unclassified RAND reports on JSF combat effectiveness. Lockheed Martin had defended F-35's JSF agility against critics and in the past but these critics just recycle the same meme.
What can you say to idiots who insist that Pacific Vision tells you about F-35 combat effectiveness in an air to air role? None of the clowns who use Pacific Vision as proof that the F-35 sucks are able to comprehend that the basis of their excited claims were based on junk military science. Pacific Vision has nothing to do with pointy platform effectiveness. It is sad to see clowns that are still trotting it out as proof of life of their own biases and yet it's been demonstrated time and time again that they are technology and systems luddites (see this DT thread where this was explained by GF, a while ago and even other blog posts the effectively discredit the ideas presented in the meme).

Honest people have real concerns about the progress of the JSF program but these concerns do not fit the usual meme. For example, the price tag of the F-35 continues to come down with each jet purchased, but there are many variables influencing the numbers. When the Turkish government delayed buying two airplanes from the seventh production batch to the ninth, the price of the remaining F-35s in the seventh production lot went up US$1 million each (and cited in Air Power 101 for New Members).

It's too early to celebrate as it is still under testing (to see if there are more problems) and we'll just have to keep a look-out for news as the programme develops. It's a complex program with ambitous goals with global partners. Nothing about it is simple. But some things that appear on mainstream media on the JSF is just not true - as many reporters fundamentally did not take the trouble to read up.
DID cite APA, whose work would not survive peer review, unless peer review means: Kopp writes a piece, submits it to Goon and Goon approves. DID sources are debunked.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lockheed Martin
Setting the Record Straight on F-35

19 Sep 2008 - ...Recent claims that Russian fighters defeated F-35s in a Hawaii-based simulated combat exercise are untrue, according to Maj. Gen. Davis.

The reports are completely false and misleading and have absolutely no basis in fact, Maj. Gen. Davis said. The August 2008 Pacific Vision Wargame that has been referenced recently in the media did not even address air-to-air combat effectiveness. The F-35 is required to be able to effectively defeat current and projected air-to-air threats. All available information, at the highest classification, indicates that F-35 is effectively meeting these aggressive operational challenges.

The Pacific Vision Wargame was a table-top exercise designed to assess basing and force-structure vulnerabilities, and did not include air-to-air combat exercises or any comparisons of different aircraft platforms.

Other erroneous allegations about the program were recently made in a letter distributed and written by industry-watchers Winston Wheeler and Pierre Sprey...
Note the post quoted below with regard to the junk science that is Pacific Vision. There is just so much 'fail' in DID and APA articles. For a laugh, here's a link to APA submissions to the Australian House of Representatives.

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Originally Posted by jack412 View Post
OPSSG, It gets better than that,
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/42891479...ent-and-Future
I think you will find that repsim and apa through Stillion, a fellow gamer, created the slide show and put the Rand logo on it. apa and repsim said as much in their testimony to gov last year
Stillion had a history of using the Rand logo to promote his personal views, including a Rand letter head with his personal views sent to our gov. as a submission
Edit: fretburner, you should try reading the threads you post in. [/grins]
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Old April 8th, 2013   #21
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Thank you for your kind words OPSSG, I wouldn't go so far as to call myself an expert, just someone with an interest in air power issues (particularly in the Singapore context) who's just trying to make sense of the bits and bobs of information (which may or may not be true) we get.
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Old April 8th, 2013   #22
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Originally Posted by TheBaseLeg View Post
Thank you for your kind words OPSSG, I wouldn't go so far as to call myself an expert, just someone with an interest in air power issues (particularly in the Singapore context) who's just trying to make sense of the bits and bobs of information (which may or may not be true) we get.
We are very glad to have you as a member here. Welcome and we hope to see you around more often, sharing with us what you observe on the F-35 program.

By the way Mike (aka TheBaseLeg) also has a old blog post from Oct 2011 on 'Singapore studying the STOVL F-35B?', where he looks at the F-35B's fit into the proposed Endurance 160 class (he points out that it is too short for normal STOVL operations). Worth a look, it is a good article that aged well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Yeo
...A bigger issue would be the length of the flight deck, being too short for F-35B operations (550ft/168m being the minimum for F-35B operations on a conventional flight deck) or the addition of a ski jump which would reduce the F-35B's take off distance to 450ft/137m...

...It would be interesting to see how the this study on the F-35B's suitability for the RSAF, presumably carried out by Singapore's Defence Science and Technology Agency, pans out. With the advent of the 5th Generation F-35 and a level of parts/logistics commonality with the Conventional Take-off Landing F-35A variant, it seems Singapore's defence planners have seen something in the STOVL F-35B worth looking further into...
If you look further back at military to military relations between US and Singapore, it is clear that the Americans have committed resources to help facilitate a Singapore decision on which F-35 type to acquire. A case in point, the conduct of Exercise Commando Sling 12-1. ‘Commando Sling’ is the code name for a series of bilateral air combat exercises between the US and Singapore. Commando Sling 12-1 stands out as one of the more remarkable exercises of the series for several reasons. Notably, this might be the first Commando Sling that has involved air combat units from more than one US armed services with the participation of F-16C/D Fighting Falcons from the Osan based 36th Fighter Sqn, 51st Fighter Wing and AV-8B Harrier IIs from the Marine Medium Helicopter Squadron 268 (Reinforced). HMM-268 (REIN) is the 11th Marine Expeditionary Unit’s aviation combat element, embarked on USS Makin Island (LHD-8).
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Old April 9th, 2013   #23
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Again, you should try reading the threads you post in. [/grins]
No, I missed what you meant? and the grin confused me more. From what I gather repsim, apa and stillion concocted a fantasy that stillion stuck a rand logo on off his own back, because he worked for rand at the time and liked using their logo to promote his own independent ideas, RAND publicly disowned it
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Old April 9th, 2013   #24
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Sorry, we got our lines crossed.

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No, I missed what you meant? and the grin confused me more. From what I gather repsim, apa and stillion concocted a fantasy that stillion stuck a rand logo on off his own back, because he worked for rand at the time and liked using their logo to promote his own independent ideas, RAND publicly disowned it
The post and [/grins] was directed at fretburner; where he ignored both your post and my prior post debunking Pacific Vision in the old F-35 thread. I have edited my original post for clarity.

fretburner defends misinformation provided by the Defense Industry Daily by pretending not to read prior information provided in the F-35 threads. He continues to spew misinformation across multiple F-35 threads and chanting the anti-F-35 meme. His ideas are not even original and he is trying to derail threads by talking about a restart of the F-22 production line.

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Originally Posted by OPSSG View Post
Given the timing issue mentioned, I expect a second F-15 squadron. I'm just wondering if this second F-15 squadron would be more F-15SGs or a variant of the Silent Eagle.

What do you think?
Back in March 2009 in the F-15SE thread (and quoted above), we were already discussing in this forum the possibility of Singapore acquiring more than 24 F-15SGs. fretburner's just trying to use the old trick of distraction, when we point out he is wrong again.

In other news, Lockheed Martin launches Canadian PR campaign for F-35. Steve O'Bryan, Lockheed's vice-president for the F-35 program, said the price of a F-35 is US$85 million. Lockheed Martin is sending its executives and a working F-35 flight simulator to wow Canadians with the capabilities of its brand-new, high-tech stealth fighter. The simulator will be on show in Toronto today, and in Winnipeg, Vancouver, Montreal and Ottawa in the weeks ahead. Billed as the fighter of the future, the F-35 is famously over budget and behind schedule. Meanwhile, Lockheed Martin's chief rival, Boeing, is offering to sell Canada a fleet of F-18 Super Hornets. Remember to take the details of this news report with a pinch of salt (and likewise for future meme chanting posts by fretburner).
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Old April 9th, 2013   #25
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OK, I'm old and have egg-timers disease, after 2 min I lose the plot, I missed that
I post here because the trolls aren't
as you would know the $85M is in then year dollars which is $73M 2012 year dollars..nothing has changed..except the noise from the desperates is getting louder..the better the programs goes the louder they get
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Old April 9th, 2013   #26
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The Netherlands is to place its Lockheed Martin F-35A Joint Strike Fighter test aircraft into temporary storage, pending a final decision on how to replace its air force's Lockheed F-16 fighters.

Newly appointed defence minister Jeanine Hennis-Plasschaert announced the decision to park the test assets in a letter to the Dutch parliament on 4 April. A first example - delivered in late 2012 - and a second, expected to be handed over in mid-2013, will be stored at Edwards AFB, California, where they will be kept in airworthy condition and flown occasionally by US Air Force pilots. The effects of the decision will be discussed with the F-35 Joint Program Office.

On 25 April, a meeting of the Dutch parliament regarding the F-16 replacement will be held, and with the current coalition it is uncertain which way the decision will go. The coalition partners say a decision on the F-35 will be taken before the end of this year.

In an interview, Hennis-Plasschaert said that her office was open for all interested manufacturers. This would enable Boeing to promote the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and Saab the Gripen E, although neither Dassault nor the Eurofighter consortium have confirmed whether they will offer their respective Rafale and Typhoon products in advance of a formal competitive process being launched.
Full story: Dutch government opts to store F-35 test aircraft

Can anybody confirm this story?

Politicians...
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Old April 10th, 2013   #27
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Full story: Dutch government opts to store F-35 test aircraft

Can anybody confirm this story?

Politicians...
I can't read Dutch but I understand that this information is from the Dutch Ministry of Defence and issued April 4, 2013 (see here for Dutch MOD Letter). Defense-aerospace has translated the letter and the link is here. Looks official.

Politicians... indeed. This is political posturing due to the current economic climate and it will affect the JSF program (from a lot production perspective and increase the cost of early lots). Along with Italy, Netherlands is a Level 2 partner (IIRC, they are the supplier of external doors in the JSF program). IMO, this does not mean that the Dutch will cancel their F-35A orders (it just means that they are not buying 2 F-35As under LRIP). It would seem to me that the Dutch are just putting on-hold their own F-35A operational test program, until a later date.

Hopefully, we are a forum with less drama (and even less trolls) on our F-35 discussion threads by keeping the drama mamas on a tight leash.
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Old April 10th, 2013   #28
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The Dutch should offer the 2 units to the South Koreans (or the Japanese)... sure they would love to parade around a couple brand spanking new F-35's for the camera's if they got half the chance. Yeah I know they are still being tested and not operational... and meant to stay in the states.... but I'm more then anything talking about feeding the propagada machine and showing the locals they are "doing something" about the NK threat. Send a fat cheque to the Dutch today and maybe, just maybe. Would have to be a vote winner for the locals and if I were a pollie in SK or Japan I'd be on it in a heartbeat.
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Old April 10th, 2013   #29
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The Dutch should offer the 2 units to the South Koreans (or the Japanese)... sure they would love to parade around a couple brand spanking new F-35's for the camera's if they got half the chance.
This is not correct. There is no need to "buy" the production slot from the Dutch. The initial Japanese buy of the F-35A is already in LRIP Lot-8. I have posted this earlier.

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but I'm more then anything talking about feeding the propagada machine and showing the locals they are "doing something" about the NK threat.
This is not how professional procurement of tertiary air forces work. There are other ways to show resolve, given the huge quantity of air assets and missile defence assets available to the Japanese (defense spending of US$58.2 billion in 2011) and South Koreans (defense spending of US$28.6 billion in 2011). Right now the South Koreans have not made a decision. There is a decision cycle and it is in process. It is professional and independent. These processes cannot be rushed in the manner you suggest and are designed to help a country buy the right equipment/platform to address their threat matrix (which would include the N. Koreans) while giving due regard to their respective industrial base considerations.

Often, I would not reply to posts like yours. Think of this post as a one time correction by me. If you continue to post like this do not be shocked if other forum members tell you what they think of your post. The quality of participation here is a little bit different. Just look around the other threads.

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Send a fat cheque to the Dutch today and maybe, just maybe. Would have to be a vote winner for the locals and if I were a pollie in SK or Japan I'd be on it in a heartbeat.
Rubbish. Stay away from things you do not understand or at least read up before posting. Do not be a drama mama.
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Old April 10th, 2013   #30
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Point taken. Was a rather off the wall comment I know. Put it down in a fingers typing faster then the brains thinking realm.

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