Europe and 5th generation aircraft

[Vivendi]

Whereas the US already has one 5th generation aircraft (F-22) and is developing another (F-35), many European countries are "stuck" with their EF, Rafale and Gripen -- all very capable aircraft that can match other aircrafts out there today and for some time to come.

However, Russia, India and Brazil are working on their own 5 gen, VLO aircraft; so does China, and it seems even Korea and Japan are moving in this direction. It will take them some time to get there (20 - 30 years?). When they do the European 4.gen aircraft may suddenly seem inadequate. What should the Europeans do? One possibility could be to purchase F-35s, some countries are already moving in this direction. Another, unlikely, scenario could be to develop a European F-35 (I don't think this will happen)


I suggest that there may be an alternative that may give a more powerful and flexible system at a lower cost: Instead of buying the F-35 one could consider a combination of 4.gen fighters and UCAV. UCAVs/UAVs will not completely replace manned fighters however for the few missions where manned aircrafts would be needed, 4.gens may do the job. One example where manned aircrafts could be needed, are "air-policing" and intercept of foreign aircrafts in peace time; I suggest a 4.gen perhaps supplemented with UAVs/UCAVs should be able to do this fine also 20-40 years into the future. For much of the rest, go UCAV.

One possible use of 4.gen fighters in "far-future" combat could be to remotely control UCAVs; in such a scenario the manned Rafale/EF/Gripen would be outside the radar range of the enemy, controlling the stealthy UCAVs operating in enemy territories. Why buy an F-35 if you can keep (and update) what you already got and use that in combination with 6.gen aircrafts?


Comments?


V.

 

[Sea Toby]

I think in another generation or two, aircraft will be replaced by missiles entirely. Missiles will do all the work. Technology is growing faster, things are getting smaller and better. Machines will eventually replace not only aircraft, ships as well, and possibly men.

 

[Dr Freud]

Europe allready has a new plane in the works, NEUROn, and it is expected to enter production ~2020

 

[JohanGrön]

The only reason F-35 is called a "fifth generation" fighter is that it is so late in development :duel

(Quoted from Gripen International CEO Åke Svensson)

 

[ASFC]

The only reason F-35 is called a "fifth generation" fighter is that it is so late in development :duel

(Quoted from Gripen International CEO Åke Svensson)

That is his opinion, especially when you see that his aircraft are fighting for several contracts against JSF.

Anyway, several Eyropean countries are buying or looking at buying JSF which is probably why there is no European 5th Gen Fighter program (excluding UCAVs).

 

[f-22fan12]

I think in another generation or two, aircraft will be replaced by missiles entirely. Missiles will do all the work. Technology is growing faster, things are getting smaller and better. Machines will eventually replace not only aircraft, ships as well, and possibly men.

It is my firm opinion that their will always be a pilot in some fighter airplanes. No matter how good and hi-tech. machines get, only a human can make certain descisions.

 

[Atilla [TR]]

I saw a BAE concept, but it got scraped apparently. I was thinking this as well Europe is going to fall back, in terms of airplane development, because everyone is going to have stealth airplanes and Europe is not. They need to think fast and build something fast, all I know is that Eurofighter and Rafale might have some of the shortest service use. But the thing is these are such good planes all that they are missing is Stealth (so maybe what they should develop is very very good stealth paint that only itself reduces the RCS of the plane without the odd stealth shaping).


Bae concept i saw.

 

[swerve]

I saw a BAE concept, but it got scraped apparently. I was thinking this as well Europe is going to fall back, in terms of airplane development, because everyone is going to have stealth airplanes and Europe is not. They need to think fast and build something fast, all I know is that Eurofighter and Rafale might have some of the shortest service use. But the thing is these are such good planes all that they are missing is Stealth (so maybe what they should develop is very very good stealth paint that only itself reduces the RCS of the plane without the odd stealth shaping).


Bae concept i saw.

REPLICA was used to get Tier 1 partner access to JSF. Proved the UK could do it without US help if necessary.

But now, only stealthy UAVs & UCAVs are under development, e.g. Taranis & Neuron.

 

[Human Bass]

Brazil working on a 5th gen fighter? nfloorl:

 

[windscorpion]

Saying you are "working" on a "5th generation fighter" is one thing, actually producing something is another matter entirely. So far only the US have produced anything, Russia are apparently close but nothing showing yet. We are of course assuming that a "5th generation fighter" has to be stealthy, supercruise, ultra agile et cetera. Thats the route the US have gone down but then again they do have a lot more money than anyone else.

I'm not sure Europe needs to build it's own 5G fighter, good 4G fighters with continuing radar, data network and BVR missile development coupled to stealthy UCAVs is what they need to do.

 

[Human Bass]

Brazil is more like dreaming of a 5th gen fighter than working on one.

 

[DarthAmerica]

This is the reason why I suggest 5th Gen has nothing to do with any specific design feature i.e. stealth, supercruise ect. Whatever replaces the Typhoon, Rafale or Su-27 will be the next generation for that user regardless of it's capabilities which are dictated by requirements and technological limitations. The USA may replace the Raptor with slower less RF stealthy aircraft if requirements at the time make that ideal. That platform will still be the "6th Generation".


-DA

 

[Dr Freud]

I'm not sure Europe needs to build it's own 5G fighter, good 4G fighters with continuing radar, data network and BVR missile development coupled to stealthy UCAVs is what they need to do.

And is precisely what they are doing

 

[DarthAmerica]

And is precisely what they are doing

Not exactly. Note the future F-35 users. Many of these nations would like an independent capability to manufacture/operate advanced combat aircraft similar in capability to the F-22/35 but can't or won't for various reasons.

-DA

*This is referencing the UCAV comment.*

*I do agree that Europe is introducing METEOR to offset some of the disadvantages of their legacy platforms. However, their is a bit of work that needs to be done on sensors that would allow METEORS range to be exploited.

 

[DarthAmerica]

Just to add to my last post. Taranis, nEUROn and other popularly referenced UCAVs are technology demonstrators. Even after they come much remains to be worked out before these types of UCAVs can realistically take over manned roles. This means that there will still be a necessity for manned aircraft of very advanced design to fulfill the requirements of air combat. Perhaps 20 or more years lay ahead before UCAVs could seriously encroach on the roles of manned aircraft sufficiently that they could actually replace a manned fighter. This is the 2025-2040 timeframe. Thats a long time to go without a significant improvement over legacy aircraft capability.

For these reasons Europe, like China, Russia, India and others will continue to develop or procure new advanced manned combat aircraft. The is why the F-35 is expected to sell 3000-4000 platforms many of those to Europe. This is why India is currently seeking new manned fighters. This is why Russia, China, Japan and South Korea are looking to develop their own too. So in that spirit I think we haven't seen the last of the manned European fighter aircraft. Even if such aircraft ultimately end up being designed by LM.

Rafale, Typhoon, F-16, F-15 and Su-27 while all capable face serious challenges with regard to survivability and all cost too much to wage modern day wars of attrition. Pairing them up with UCAVs does seem to offer some survivability benefits at first. But the sheer complexity of the networking ensure that true LO advanced fighters with AESA, AAAMs and more exotic weapons will prevail in most cases. Remember they too can fight with UCAVs without being the weak link in the kill chain by virtue of their survivability because they will have option of penetrating into hostile airspace at anytime. In fact, I don't see why it would even be beneficial to tether a true UCAV to a platform as limited as a manned fighter. Especially considering the limited endurance and near sightedness of a manned fighter. The principles of operations are just so fundamentally different.

-DA

 

[Feanor]

Brazil is more like dreaming of a 5th gen fighter than working on one.

There are permeating rumors about a joint venture with the Russian PAK-FA.

have option of penetrating into hostile airspace at anytime

Depends on the airspace doesn't it? When you have a sophisticated AD-network (and I mean theater-level network, not just point-defense) coupled with strategic level RLS stations even Raptor class aircraft survivability becomes fairly low especially if the enemy has the number advantage.

 

[DarthAmerica]

There are permeating rumors about a joint venture with the Russian PAK-FA.



Depends on the airspace doesn't it? When you have a sophisticated AD-network (and I mean theater-level network, not just point-defense) coupled with strategic level RLS stations even Raptor class aircraft survivability becomes fairly low especially if the enemy has the number advantage.

Not quite. The Raptors advantages extend beyond the EM spectrum. There is a reason it fly's so high and fast.

 

[Human Bass]

Those rumors are really surreal. Oh well, but lets leave this thread for the european stuff.

 

[Feanor]

Well then it all depends on how dense the AD network, and how large/powerful the RLS are, right? Again if the entire AD networked to (for arguments sake) one of the new Voronezh class RLS , then there's not much chance the Raptor has. Now when I say AD, I mean modern interceptors, theater and point-defense SAMs, and lots, and lots, and lots of SPAAGs and MANPADS (so flying low is not much of an option either) integrated and datalinked. At least in theory that's what a 21st century AD network could look like.

 

[motiv]

I honestly don't think there are any issues with not having a native VLO aircraft for European countries.

While no 5th Gen is currently scheduled the UK and to a lesser extent France, no doubt have the capabilities if push came to shove to do this.

With the numbers of Griphen, Typhoon and Rafael in the inventories of the EU states they really don't have anything to fear as they are all good strike aircraft. Add in the JSF numbers (400ish?) and you have a European force that is a match for any nation if needed.

All in all the EU has no worries from a stand point of defending their "home turf".

When you add in the Neuron/Taranis, which in 2010 will demonstrate the EUs ability to produce VLO UCAVs (which will no doubt be a very deadly weapon if built in numbers) , you can understand why they would pospone a 5th Gen, with the JSF being available to the majority of member states.