Capabilities & data Comparison- EuroFighter and Su-30MKI

ajay_ijn

New Member
Re: Euro-Fighter 2000

Can mods transfer this thread to Military Aviation Forum

Surely Typhoon is better than Su-30MKI is many areas.

But i would be more interested to compare Typhoon and Su-37.
The main Advantage of Typhoon over Su-30MKI would be its stealth features.
Brief Technical Comparision of Su-30MKI and EF-2000 Typhoon.
Aerodynamics
EF-2000 has instantaneous and sustained turn rates.
The "Eurofighter possesses a delta CAN pool of broadcasting corporations interpretation for high flight performances and high Agility in all speed ranges. Those under the trunk lying air intakes provide for an excellent flowing against behavior, also with high angles of incidence. The airplane unites a high lift wing with low flight structural weight and very strong engines. It is inherently aerodynamically unstable. Without the computer-assisted control the bird would break out violently upward, it would not be not controllable by
a pilot.
While MKI has High Angle of attack.
Su-30MKIThe Su-30MKI aerodynamic configuration is an unstable longitudinal triplane. The canard increases the aircraft lifting effectiveness. It deflects automatically and allows high angle-of- attack flights. The integral aerodynamic configuration combined with thrust vectoring results in practically unlimited manoeuvrability and unique taking off and landing characteristics.Stability and control are assured by a digital FBW.
EF-2000 Has huge advantage,it is has 7 times small RCS than Su-27.We cannot call it has completely stealthy like B-2 or F-22 but its a stealthy aircraft.
Without extreme stealth characteristics with the development of the Eurofighter was done, one tried only the?natuerlichen as far as possible? To keep as small radar cross section as possible. This entails a considerable cost saving. Such characteristics, like them the F-22 or the F-117a possess are useful only with the employment in spacious even areas in middle or large heights. The Eurofighter however conceived for the BVR employment, for this is sufficient as small a radar cross section as possible. In addition it comes still that for a stealth airplane the weapon load must be carried internally, which limits their extent rather.
Su-30MKI has no AOA limitations which gives advantage to pilot in deploying weapons in any direction.
The term "super-maneuverability" was coined by Dr. Wolfgang Herbst, initiator of the USA's X-31 prototype program, in defining controllability up to 60° to 70° Angle-of-Attack with transients of 120° or more.The Su-30MKI has no AoA limitations: it can fly at even 180 degree AoA and still recover. This high super-agility allows rapid deployment of weapons in any direction as desired by the crew. The addition of another seat means that the pilot is free to concentrate on flying the aircraft while the second pilot can engage targets
Structure
EF-2000
It takes place an arrangement in arrangement in forward fuselage, central trunk, tail, left wing, right wing and vertical stabilizer. The construction took place also under the criterion to create an airplane with as small a radar cross section as possible.
Su-30MKI
The Su-30MKI is a highly integrated twin-finned aircraft. The airframe is constructed of titanium and high-strength aluminium alloys. The engine nacelles are fitted with trouser fairings to provide a continuous streamlined profile between the nacelles and the tail beams
FCS
EF-2000
This been made by a digital, 4-kanaliges Fly By Wire system (triple redundant), which the movements over sensors, implemented by the pilot at the control stick, takes up, into which four existing computers processes and as control signals to the servo actuators attached to the surfaces and flaps passes on. The flight control covers likewise the armament and the fuel supply.
The Flight control of computer (FCCs) is both among themselves and in each case connected with the individual sensors and announcements.
The FCS is likewise responsible for the flight control, which covers not only an autopilot, but also automatic patrol flights and attacks. for the disoriented pilot it gives also still. With manipulation the airplane is brought automatically into an easy climb.
Su-30MKI
For flight control, reliability and survivability, the aircraft has a FBW with quadruple redundancy. Depending on the flight conditions, signals from the control stick position transmitter or the automatic FCS will be coupled to the remote control amplifiers. Upon updating, depending on the flight speed and altitude, these signals are combined with feedback signals fed by acceleration sensors and rate gyros. The resultant control signals are coupled to the high-speed electro-hydraulicactuators of the stabilizers, rudders and the canard. For greater reliability,
Both have similar capability FBW but
Typoon's FBW has triple redundant and Su-30MKI FBW has quadruple redundant.What does it mean?

Cockpit and other avionics
EF-2000

The EF-2000 uses advanced user-friendly avionics which allows the pilot to gain optimum control over the aircraft. The avionics used in the EF-2000 include HMS(heal mounted symbology) system and HUD(heads up display). The EF-2000 has the capability to display the FlIR imagery, flight reference information and weapons management to the pilot. The EF-2000 also has three colour MFDs in the cockpit to show the real time tactical information to the pilot which help the pilot have what is called situational awareness of the battlefeild. The MFDs displav vital information like the digital terrain map, the status of the systems on board and the weapons status. The EF-2000 also features commands using voice inputs. This allows the pilot to enter data and procedures using voice.
In addition it has passive modes and IRST.
Su-30MKI
The SU-30MKI employs extensive use of French (Sextant Avionique) components in the cockpit. A total of 6 LCDs, 5 MFD 55s and 1 MFD 66 for displaying information and accepting commands are used. The six LCDs have a wide-screen, offer image-superimposing and are shielded to make them readable even in bright sunlight. All the flight information is displayed on these four LCD displays which include one for piloting and navigation, a tactical situation indicator, and two for display systems information including operating modes and overall operation status. A VEH 3000 holographic HUD is standard. The cockpit also retains some traditional dial displays as standys.
In addition it has satellite navigation system,Secure HF and VHF radio comm.
It can be also fitted with Imaging IR navgation and has Laser optical locating system and FLIR.

RADAR
EF-2000
As written by turin
EF uses the CAPTOR-Radar. Its a mechanical pulse-Doppler-Radar. Because its mechanical some people claim its an inferior radar. While new radars are not mechanical moved anymore its capabilities are still up-to-date. It has an official range of about 185 km for figher sized AC and around 370 km for larger ones like commercial AC. It can detect & track up to 20 targets simultaniously and uses a special processing channel (next to detection and tracking) for ECM.
The CAPTOR is integral part of the EF sensor fusion system.
The radar offers a multiplicity of air-to-air and air-to-surface modes and is fully and look down capable of of look UP. It can identify and them to priorities assign automatically airborne targets. gelaendedarstellung, ranging or filtering spurious signals caused by waves rank during flights over water. Automatic weapon delivery is supported likewise. The radar is relatively insensitive opposite ECM
Su-30MKI
The forward facing Phazotron NO11M Bars is a powerful integrated radar sighting system. The N011M is a digital multi-mode dual frequency band radar (X and L Band, NATO D and I). Antenna diameter is 1m, antenna gain 36dB, the main sidelobe level is -25dB, average sideobe level is -48dB, beamwidth is 2.4 deg with 12 distinct beam shapes. The antenna weighs 100kg.
For aircraft N011M has a 350 km search range and a 200 km tracking range. The radar can track and engage 20 air targets and engage the 8 most threatening targets simultaneously.
Additionally the Su-30MKI can function as a 'mimi-AWACS' and can act as a director or command post for other aircraft. The target co-ordinates can be transferred automatically to atleast 4 other aircraft
It can detect small surface targets at 50km and Ships at 400km.
It has Another Rearward Facing RADAR
The Su-30MKI also has a NO12 rearward facing radar which is housed at the end of the center section spine or sting and alerts a pilot to the approach of an enemy aircraft on his tail. This radar has a range of 50km for a 3 sqm RCS target and 100 km for large ones.It enables the pilot to fire the R-73RDM2 missile without turning to get a positive lock on the enemy aircraft.
In Radar MKI has slight advantage over Typhoon.
Hope Admin will not be angry for this big message i posted
 
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ajay_ijn

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  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
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Re: Euro-Fighter 2000

I am continuing my previous post as the no. of words in the post exceeded 10,000.
Engine
EF-2000 Typhoon
The Eurojet EJ200 is a state of the art low bypass ratio augmented turbofan engine, which was designed for use on Europe's all new front line fighter aircraft, the Eurofighter EF2000 Typhoon. The EJ200 gives the Typhoon the a unity (1:1) power to weight ratio even at maximum take off weight, and allows the sleek fighter to supercruise up to speeds of Mach 1.3; supercruise being the ability to cruise at supersonic speed without the use of the afterburner. The Eurojet EJ200 features many state of the art design elements, including integrated blade/disk construction, (blisks) wide chord fan airfoils without a need for inlet guide vanes, single crystal turbine blades, an airspray fuel delivery system,
Complete Info:
http://www.topfighters.com/eurofighter_engine.php
Its Engine is truly state of art,SuperCruise till Mach 1.3,Low heat signature,High weight to thrust ratio,specific excess power.
Thrust Rating: 20,000 lbs. of thrust with afterburner
Thrust/weight: 8.7:1
Does Typhoon Engines have TVC.
Su-30MKI
The Su-30MKI is powered by the Al-31FP (P for povorotnoye meaning "movable"), which is a development of the Al-37FU (seen in the Su-37 Terminator). The Al-37FU (FU stands for forsazh-upravlaemoye-sopo or "afterburning-articulating/steerable-nozzle") basically added 2D Thrust Vectoring Control (TVC) Nozzles to the Al-31F. 2D TVC means that the Nozzles can be directed/pointed in 2 axis or directions - up or down. TVC obviuosly makes an aircraft much more maneuverable. Al-31FP builds on the Al-37FU with the capability to vector in 2 planes i.e. thrust can be directed side-ways also. The nozzles of the MKI are capable of deflecting 32 degrees in the horizontal plane and 15 degrees in the vertical plane.

.The aircraft is capable of near-zero speed airspeed at high angles of attack and super dynamic aerobatics in negative speeds up to 200 km/h.
It has 2D TVC which allows aircraft to highly maneuverable in negative speeds upto 200km/h.
Thrust:25000 kg full afterburning thrust

In air-air weapons both have near equal capability
For EF-2000,Meteor BVRAAM,Aim-120 AMRAAM,Sidewinder SRAAM
For Su-30MKI AA-12 Adder,AA-11 Archer,AA-10 Alamos.
In air-to ground weapons
I don't know whether EF can carry Standoff and Cruise Missiles but can carry all the other weapons LGB,Anti-armor.
MKI can carry Most of the Russian Air-surface weapons and in future could be equipped with Brahmos Supersonic Ashm.

Source:
http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/info-su30mki.html
http://www.topfighters.com/eurofighter_gen_info.php?id=4
and also some info from previous messages.
 
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webmaster

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Thread split from Euro-Fighter 2000 thread in Military Images and Media forum. I am sure it took you time to compile all that thus the posts were not deleted.

Continue!
 
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ajay_ijn

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Thank u very much admin,it took me more than 1 hour to post the message.
Admin may i know your name,age etc?
 

mysterious

New Member
All pilots use helmet mounted sight in such advanced airforces (indication towards those who are going to be using Ef-2000) and its only the less developed airforces whose pilots struggle with that.
 
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ajay_ijn

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Do you think the Ef-2000 can perform the Cobra and the Super Cobra?
They both can mach each other, it whoever locks on first...
Also does the Ef-2000 pilots have the helmet mounted sight?
Obviously dude EF pilots have HMS.
I don't think EF can perform Cobra or Super Cobra.
Only Su-27 family can perform these kind of maneuvers(In Specific

EF has huge advantage low RCS over MKI and also super cruise.
If MKI's RADAR manages to detect the EF in long ranges and It would be a Fight of equals.

While MKI has no AOA limitations and is highly maneuverable in negative air-speeds upto 200km/h.
In Close ranges MKI's will have TVC advantage and EF will have SuperCruise Advantage.
In BVR Depend on RADAR,MKI's RADAR looks to be effective but it will have to face problems in detection becoz of Low RCS of Typhoon.
Another two advantages MKI has is it can transfer target coodinates to four another fighter aircraft (Like Mini AWACS) .Also has rearward Facing RADAR and can launch much feared R-73 Missile on to the targets behind Fighter Aircraft.

It looks like MKI is not that inferior to EuroFighter.;) The one big advantage would very Low RCS of EF.

However I want experts help on SuperCruise Vs TVC.
Which can give more advantage in air war.
 

The Watcher

New Member
as far as i know those super fancy manuveours have nothing to do when it comes time for combat. not in era of BVR! those moves only look good at airshows to please the audience and win contracts. maybe someone with an extra brain cell than me could correct if im wrong? ;)
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
ajay_ijn said:
However I want experts help on SuperCruise Vs TVC.
Which can give more advantage in air war.
TVC for planes is over rated - it's marketing hype.

Think about it, a manned aircraft can sustain 9G - irrespective of TVC or not. An air to air missile can sustain 30+G - without TVC. If you put TVC on the missile (as has happened), there is no way that an aircraft can "out agility" it.

so, a $500k missile, or a $30m+ plane + $2m dollars worth of pilot.

As for high Supercruise vs TVC - Supercruise with/without a TVC missile everytime. Especially in managed and co-ordinated air space.

Th oft touted advantages applied to Cobras, Mongooses etc were show stoppers 6 years ago - now they're not useful at all. The scenario oft quoted about how they can be used (just after the interview with the head Sukhoi Pilot at the Paris Air Show) is also irellevant now due to tech changes in radar acquisition.

At the end of the day it will get down to pilots, pilots training, combined arms, managed air space and platform.

The platform depends on the others to work, the others don't necessarily need the platform.
 

highsea

New Member
Re: Euro-Fighter 2000

ajay_ijn said:
Both have similar capability FBW but
Typoon's FBW has triple redundant and Su-30MKI FBW has quadruple redundant.What does it mean?
It means that the FBW systems have back-up paths/components in case of failure or damage. Triple redundant means you can have two failures and the aircraft is still controllable. Quadruple redundant means you can have 3 failures.

Regarding the subject of TVC, there is one advantage of TVC that is often overlooked, and that is the ability to compensate for damaged flight and control surfaces. This was one of the primary objectives of the F-15 ACTIVE program, and having differential TVC integrated into the FCS helps a lot to keep a damaged AC flyable. The manouverability aspect may be overrated, but the ability to bring a damaged AC home is definitely better than punching out over hostile territory.
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
The Hyper maneuverability that is possessed by the Su-27/30 aircraft might be useful in some hypothetical "dog fight". But very little air to air combat will take place in that arena in the future. It's all about BVR. In saying that though the Tranche 3 Eurofighter will be equipped with a Thrust Vectoring Control system, (as well as an engine upgrade [already designed] and stated to achieve 20% more thrust, with greater fuel efficiency and lighter engine weight).

In addition the Tranche 3 will be provided with a new AESA version of the Captor radar, the Pirate IRST system and other next gen enhancements. As the Eurofighter Typhoon hasn't even entered operational service yet, I think it's a bit early to really compare the 2, but when that Tranche 3 model comes around, I think those SU-27/30 lovers might be a bit disappointed with "their" bird... The Typhoon IMHO will be the 2nd best fighter aircraft in the world beside the F-22...
 

gf0012-aust

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Clarification. I didn't mean to sound so harsh about TVC - it was couched in reference to issues of hyper manouvreability and supposed combat advantages.
 

highsea

New Member
I understood what you meant, Gary. I agree with the point. SU-30's are great at airshow manouvers, but that has a very limited use in future combat. The F-22 would be able to do these manouvers also, if the FCS didn't restrict them. Fact is, they are very dangerous moves, and a few pilots have been killed attempting them. One little F-up and it's lights out. 15G's is not good for pilots and aircraft. :(
 

ajay_ijn

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think those SU-27/30 lovers might be a bit disappointed with "their" bird...
Never,Su-27/Su-30 did overtake the capabilites of F-15/F-16 and capability to match some other western fightes to some extent.
Fans will not get disappointed by Su-27/Su-30 performance except if they expect too much from them like facing F-22 and EF.
They will perform(in a War) Sucessfully of what they were Designed to i suppose
Compared to EuroFighter they are no match.
The Hyper maneuverability that is possessed by the Su-27/30 aircraft might be useful in some hypothetical "dog fight". But very little air to air combat will take place in that arena in the future. It's all about BVR.
True in Future it might be a BVR Combat only,
but EF might face some problems due MKI's RADAR and R-73 Missile if at all it faces a Close Combat.
Does any other fighter have RearWard facing RADAR and ability to fire a Missile Which can flip around and target fighter behind it ??

Another Question is TVC Completely useless in Combat???

In BVR,its RADAR and BVR Missile which play Major Roles,I suppose.
Su-30MKI has the powerful Russian RADAR.N011M Bars.
 
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A

Aussie Digger

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I've seen reports (which I can't produce) where US pilots have stated that the F-15, F-16 and F-18 would be able to perform Cobra maneuvers if software constraints were removed from their aircraft. It seems to me a bit dangerous however, and would probably end up with more airshow crashes. Given that these Western aircraft have still had greater export success, I don't think it's worth it personally...
 

SABRE

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Verified Defense Pro
ajay_ijn said:
Only Su-27 family can perform these kind of maneuvers(In Specific
MiG-29 does a tail slide which is almost similar to Cobra.
 

Salman78

New Member
I would'nt be surprised if the MKI pilot can't see poop on his radar screen at long range (let's say 100km) since EF2000 is quite stealthy. Supercruise combined with the upcoming Meteor missile will give the EF2000 a major edge over MKI's R-77 Adder.
EF2k pilot's would stay out of MKI's missile range and score a first shot kill with their longe range active seeker.
EF2k also offers the pilot, better situational awareness.
MKI's manoverability is unchallenged but dog fighting is the last thing a pilot wants to be in. so in the highly unlikely scenario of MKI vs EF both or one would be down well before visual.
MKI really beats the EF when it comes to price tag.
 

ajay_ijn

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I would'nt be surprised if the MKI pilot can't see poop on his radar screen at long range (let's say 100km) since EF2000 is quite stealthy. Supercruise combined with the upcoming Meteor missile will give the EF2000 a major edge over MKI's R-77 Adder.
EF2k pilot's would stay out of MKI's missile range and score a first shot kill with their longe range active seeker.
Agreed.But EF is not Completely Stealth Aircraft like F-22 etc but has much smaller RCS than normal Fighter,So MKI's RADAR might detect it may at range of say 80-90km.
There Might be a possibility that MKI pilot will Launch R-77 Before being shot down by the Meteor or transfer target coordinates to other Su-30MKI's.
The most Decisive thing would be
At which range Su-30MKI's Radar would be able to detect EF-2000??
 

arjun

Banned Member
euro fighter is capabilitities of whole europe and su-30 is made by just one nation. i think good to do not camper. both are ok in own ways.
 
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