Can AWACS detect and track Ground Targets??

ajay_ijn

New Member
Can a Normal AWACS like Phalcon detect ground targets??
If yes then what an Aircraft like JSTARS or UK's ASTOR are for???

If no then is it possible to use Same Aircraft for providing Air picture as well as Ground picture.

Already AWACS like Phalcon perform two things,one is AEW and also Intelligance gathering using COMINT and ELINT.

Defnition of AWACS in Airforce Technology is given as
Aircraft fitted with long-range radar used to carry out airborne surveillance and command, control and communications functions for both tactical and air defence forces from high altitude. AWACS systems can simultaneously detect and track air, sea and ground targets. Examples of AWACS systems include Boeing's 767 AWACS and E-3 AWACS.
http://www.airforce-technology.com/glossary/airborne-warning-and-control-system.html


I saw in Airforce Magazine i saw an article about a next generation Aircraft called [font=arial,verdana,helvetica,sans serif][font=arial,verdana,helvetica,sans serif][font=arial,verdana,helvetica,sans serif]Multisensor Command and Control Aircraft( MC2A).
The MC2A is to replace RC-135,JSTARS,E-3 and can perform all the operations as these aircraft could peform.
http://www.afa.org/magazine/nov2002/1102threat.asp
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gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
ajay_ijn said:
Can a Normal AWACS like Phalcon detect ground targets??[font=arial,verdana,helvetica,sans serif][font=arial,verdana,helvetica,sans serif][font=arial,verdana,helvetica,sans serif][/font][/font][/font]
The short uncomplicated answer is yes. ASW platforms like the Orion P3C's can also used for ground surveillance depending on their fitout.
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
I've read (in a magazine) that a ground (radar) surveillance capability was considered for the RAAF Wedgetails prior to the design being "locked" in, however the interference caused by the air search radar impeded the capability too much.

Obviously there was not much in the way of specific technological details in that argument, but it did state that a J-STARS type capability is a potential growth option for RAAF Wedgetails.

Also there's nothing to say that a FLIR type surveillance capability couldn't be included...
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Aussie Digger said:
I've read (in a magazine) that a ground (radar) surveillance capability was considered for the RAAF Wedgetails prior to the design being "locked" in, however the interference caused by the air search radar impeded the capability too much.

Obviously there was not much in the way of specific technological details in that argument, but it did state that a J-STARS type capability is a potential growth option for RAAF Wedgetails.

Also there's nothing to say that a FLIR type surveillance capability couldn't be included...
The AP3's are kitted for ground surveillance. Primarily the Global Hawks will take over some of that role as well as BAMs(assuming that it's them that get selected). If you look at the future capability of BAMs Global Hawk, AP3's, Wedgetails and Mariners (as well as JORN and the SWR station) then ground surveillance is prett well covered in Oz.
 

umair

Peace Enforcer
Basically yes, they can. Though I don't know the exact dynamics, but the new ESA platforms can handle both jobs at the same time according to my reading of related literature. The first example which jumps into my mind is the proposed ERIEYE version for the PAF which will have a ground survaillance capability.
One more thing, gf, high can you guys shed some light on SLARs in this topic cause my info in that area is below amature level.
 

kashifshahzad

Banned Member
umair said:
Basically yes, they can. Though I don't know the exact dynamics, but the new ESA platforms can handle both jobs at the same time according to my reading of related literature. The first example which jumps into my mind is the proposed ERIEYE version for the PAF which will have a ground survaillance capability.
One more thing, gf, high can you guys shed some light on SLARs in this topic cause my info in that area is below amature level.
Dear umair read about the ERIEYE

The SAAB aircraft for the PAF will be equipped with ERIEYE AEW&C system which can manage airborne early warning; intercept communication; airspace management; surveillance and control borders; detect illegal shipment of weapons and drugs; and coordinate search and rescue operations.

ERIEYE - Airborne Early Warning & Control System (AEW&C)

ERIEYE is the first high-performance, long-range Airborne Early Warning & Control (AEW&C) system based on active phased-array pulse-Doppler radar.

This new-generation system is capable of installation in a variety of commercial and military aircraft, including regional jet or turboprop airliners. It meets full AEW&C requirements for detecting and tracking targets at ranges of up to 450 km over land or water.

ERIEYE is a complete AEW&C system, including radar (with integrated SSR/IFF), electronic support measures, communications and data links, comprehensive command-and-control facilities and self-protection system.

The ERIEYE radar, with its fixed electronically scanned antenna and use of adaptive radar control techniques, has superior resolution accuracy. When compared to traditional rotodome-based solutions, it provides enhanced detection and tracking performance, including the active simultaneous tracking of multiple targets. In addition, the radar offers significantly improved resistance to electronic countermeasures (ECM).

State-of-the-art command-and-control system gives the on-board mission-system crew full capability for AEW&C roles as well as maximum flexibility for other peacetime and war missions. ERIEYE is fully interoperable with and easily integrated into NATO Air Defense Command Systems.



ERIEYE
ERIEYE has been developed by Ericsson Microwave Systems. The system comprises an active, phased-array pulse-Doppler radar including integrated secondary surveillance radar and identification friend or foe (SSR/IFF), a comprehensive, modular command-and-control system, electronic support measures (ESM), communications and datalinks.

Rather than conventional rotodome antenna system, ERIEYE has a fixed, dual-sided and electronically scanned antenna mounted on top of the fuselage. This places much less demand on aircraft size and is designed for mounting on commuter-type aircraft. The ERIEYE is capable of 360° detection and tracking of air and sea targets over the horizon. The instrumented range is 450km and a typical detection range against a fighter aircraft size target is in excess of 350km.

The system uses advanced solid-state electronics, open-system architecture and ruggedized commercial off-the-shelf (COTS) hardware, including general-purpose programmable workstations and full-colour LCD displays. The ERIEYE radar is already in service with the Swedish Air Force and is in series production for Brazil and other customers.

This is all what i have got about the ERIEYE combine this and then any one can understand
 

ajay_ijn

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #7
The short uncomplicated answer is yes. ASW platforms like the Orion P3C's can also used for ground surveillance depending on their fitout.
If a Single Aircraft is capable detecting both ground and Air targets then why does US use two diff aircraft E-3 and JSTARS.

Can A single aircraft effectively provide ground and as well Air picture.
They need not do it simultaneausly.
 

kashifshahzad

Banned Member
ajay_ijn said:
If a Single Aircraft is capable detecting both ground and Air targets then why does US use two diff aircraft E-3 and JSTARS.

Can A single aircraft effectively provide ground and as well Air picture.
They need not do it simultaneausly.
Ajay this is what i have found after search this will help you

Y-8 AWACS

In addition to the KJ-2000/A-50I AWACS programme, China is also developing a smaller AWACS based on the Shaanxi Y-8 platform. The first prototype reportedly made its maiden flight on 14 January 2005. The Y-8 AWACS testbed, based on a Shaanxi Y-8F-400 turboprop transport, is fitted with an electronically steered phased-array (ESA) radar similar in shape and size to the Swedish Ericsson PS-890 Erieye. It is not clear whether the PLA acquired the Erieye radar and its associated technology from the Sweden, or developed the radar indigenously.

The importance of ISR and AWACS has led the PLAAF to seek ESA radar technology to improve its airborne surveillance capabilities. While the precise state of Chinese ESA technology is unclear, it is likely to be deficient. For active ESA applications, solid-state transmit/receive modules are the critical elements, of which there may be 2,000~3,000 depending on the size of the array. However, much of this technology is commercially available, and China is likely to continue to acquire related technologies that can advance its local capabilities.

Should the Y-8’s Erieye-like radar have a similar performance to the Swedish system, it would provide a maximum search range of 450km. As a phased array radar, the system should be capable of ‘spot’ modes as well as wide search modes, which would enable it to be used for electronic intelligence, ground mapping and targeting missions.
The P-3C Update III Anti-Surface Warfare Improvement Program [AIP] Aircraft will provide improvements in Command, Control, Communications, and Intelligence; surveillance and OTH-T capabilities; and survivability, to include the Maverick Missile System. Delivery of the P-3C Update III Anti-Surface Warfare (ASUW) Improvement Program (AIP) Aircraft to the fleet began 29 April 1998 and is scheduled to be complete at the close of FY00

The IR Maverick Missile is an infrared-guided, rocket-propelled, air-to-ground missile for use against targets requiring considerable warhead penetration prior to detonation. The missile is capable of two pre-flight selectable modes of target tracking. The armor or land track mode is optimized for tracking land-based targets such as tanks or fortified emplacements. The ship track mode is optimized for tracking seaborne targets. The missile is capable of launch-and-leave operation. After launch, automatic missile guidance is provided by an imaging infrared energy sensing and homing device.
This clearly shows that the future AWACS would be able to track the ground targets too and P-3 will be able to distroy it too

CHEERS!! ENJOY
 

ajay_ijn

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #9
But still i think if Normal AWACS is can do the Job then why does US and UK JSTAR or ASTOR?

US Future Aircraft called M2CA can can be used for all three purposes effectively.
1.AEW
2.Ground Targets.
3.Electronic Intellingence.

Presently US has 3 aircraft to perform them
1.E-3
2.JSTARS(E-8)
3.RC-135
 
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adsH

New Member
ajay_ijn said:
But still i think if Normal AWACS is can do the Job then why does US and UK JSTAR or ASTOR?

Presently US has 3 aircraft to perform them
1.E-3
2.JSTARS(E-8)
3.RC-135

Main reason why they have multiple platforms for the job is that when the whole doctrine was designed for the C3i or now C4I. the technology was the limiting factor. NOw that problem is gone the US has other plans for the next gen EW&C systems . GF would be able to shed some light on the US Plans. The Aussie version uses wedge-tale with Global Hawks(as mentioned earlier). Our (UK) future is our FOAS (Manned Unmanned Assets with long strike and recon capabilities) systems.

Oh the only modern AEW&C that i can recall that doesn't have the upto date ground surveillance capability that a platform (of that standard) should have are the upgraded Saudi E3. Algorithms for the Ground imagery systems were not included. I guess that is probably why they are trying to Acquire the Eyrie.
 
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