Brimstone

Pingu

New Member
The Dual Mode Brimstone is an interesting development which has effectively put the UK ahead of the US in providing a missile with similar capabilities to the JAGM which has yet to be fully developed.

It is interesting though that the original version survived amid critism of cold war type equipment procurement. I don't really see the mmw version ever being used in a modern conflict. My understanding is that in Libya, only the DMS version has been used. I struggle to see the value of it's very sophisticated control system/sensor package etc when even in Libya, it is not used in a simple anti-armour role.

I have never quite fully understood how the weapon is guided, I understand that terminal guidance is acheived through its seeker but fail to see how mid course guidance is achieved. Perhaps someone could clarify this.

Anyhow, my understanding is that in the DMS Brimstone, the laser seeker does not replace the mmw seeker but actually coexists with it in the same missile. I dont see the need for the weapon to be dual-mode because the two guidance methods seem mutually exclusive to me rather than complimentary. I struggle to see how the missile could switch modes mid flight or use both modes at the same time. Surely it would be more cost effective to have two seperate weapons with two seperate seekers while maintaining commonality of having shared warhead, propulsion, airframe, control system etc.

I personally feel that the mmw version would make a very effective anti-ship missle against small vessels or so called small boat swarms. Apparently proposals have been made by MBDA to demonstrate such an ability with a few small tweeks to the missiles contol system.

What I would like to see therefore, is all existing mmw Brimstones to be converted to an antisurface weapon, therefore filling the requirement for the so called FASGW(Light). As for land based applications of the Brimstone, simply stick with a laser guided variant.

I am baffled by the amount of future projects and their ever changing names; SPEAR, FASGW, etc. Why not simply develop existing the existing Brimstone to fullfill FASGW(Light) and the smaller SPEAR category while making a larger very high speed missile to address both the FASGW (heavy) and the heavier SPEAR category. This missile would make an effecive replacement to the Storm Shadow also. I am not entirely sure whether FASGW(Heavy) was ever intended to carried by helicopters or by the JCA only but my proposal certainly makes the former impossible.

Going back to Brimstone (apologies for the digression), I think the existing warhead would be effective against a wide variety of the threats; a small boat, an armoured vehicle, antistructure etc and I don't really see the need for a variety of warheads of a modular warhead. The improvement I would like to see would be a feature that can reduce the blast in areas with the risk of civilian casualities. Perhaps such a feature could be selected before launch by the launch aircraft. Even better than this would be the use of a carbon fibre body to reduce shrapnel, but whether this can be achieved without seriously effecting the flight characteristics of the weapon remains to be seen.

Anyway, there you have just a few of my thoughts as to how the UK could address many solutions with just two missiles rather than creating a stupid amount of projects with a stupid amount of names, while promoting commonality. My proposal would also see an antisurface weapon that could be brought into service much sooner than existing propsals and would be a perfect compliment to the Lynx Wildcat.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Dual mode Brimstones are being converted from existing stocks. AFAIK new Brimstones are not currently being made, though they could be, on the line now being used for conversions.

The FASGW(L) requirement is already covered by LMM, a much smaller missile (13kg) than Brimstone, which reuses many components from the Starstreak SAM. Testing of the initial model (apparently further guidance modes will be added) is complete, & a production contract has been signed. Part of this contract will be met by switching part of an existing order for Starstreak to LMM.

FASGW(H) is not in the same class as Storm Shadow. It is a much smaller, lighter weapon, intended for carriage by lighter aircraft (particularly helicopters), & for use against smaller targets. It's a direct replacement for Sea Skua, & seems to be based on MBDAs proposed Sea Skua 2. Storm Shadow will not be replaced: it will stay in service & be developed further.

A lot of the many future projects you mention are being met by developments of existing products, or by adopting weapons already available. DM Brimstone & Paveway IV (with enhancements) will fill two of the SPEAR requirements, for example, & another SPEAR capability seems to be met by FASGW(H).

It may seem complicated, but the whole Team Complex Weapons thing, with SPEAR, FASGW, etc., surprises me by how sensible it seems. Suppliers, the MoD, & the services are looking at requirements as a whole, rather than ad hoc, they're re-using technology, proposing meeting requirements with incremental developments of existing successful products rather than blue sky new stuff, etc. Astonishing! Not at all like the mess one expects.
 

wormhole

New Member
As mentioned, the latest Brimstone has Semi-Active Laser and mmW sensors. JAGM will also have these in addition to an IIR targeting mode, all on a single missile. This makes it a more versatile missile in coping with dynamic battlefield conditions (ie. weather, visibility, counter-measures, etc.) and a more effective means to attack targets.

Multiple sensors cost money. OTOH, they are more effective and help ensure the safety of the launching aircraft and its crew by minimizing exposure time to defensive fire.
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
@Pingu
I think you underestimate the usefullness of the MMW seeker. In Afghanistan the RAF is targeting compounds and other structures/positions and in Lybia they operate with the goal of zero civilian casualties.

But other operations are not far fetched. A MMW Brimstone would have come in handy during ODS and OIF were the enemy massed real combat formations instead of the stuff we see in Afghanistan and Lybia.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
A MMW Brimstone would have come in handy during ODS and OIF were the enemy massed real combat formations instead of the stuff we see in Afghanistan and Lybia.
Indeed. I'm a little surprised that South Korea hasn't bought a large number of the basic radar model. It would seem ideal for their circumstances, & appropriate for any country facing the risk of armoured warfare on a significant scale, e.g. India & Pakistan.
 

wormhole

New Member
Brimstone is getting rave reviews in Libya to the extent that the US and France have expressed interest in ordering the missile. mmW seeker tech has been proven for some time now.. the Apache Longbow uses a similar Hellfire missile to allow ripple firing vs multiple targets in fire-and-forget mode.

South Korea is in discussions to buy 36 Apache Blk III with Longbow/mmW Hellfire capability.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Yeah, but Hellfire can't be launched from fast jets. You have to get down & dirty with a helicopter.
 

wormhole

New Member
The SDB-II uses a similar tri-mode seeker and Raytheon beat out Lockheed Martin/Boeing team for that contract. Now Boeing has teamed up with Raytheon to compete with LM for the JAGM deal. Some cross-pollination going on. Both teams have demonstrated consistent results in government mandated and privately funded tests so price will probably be key. Either way, it looks like the armed services will wind up with a good product.
 

Gremlin29

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The real world problem with ground attack radar guided missiles is that they are indiscriminate. You simply can not PID targets with radar if friendlies and or non-combatants are within missile range (somewhat of rarity in this century). A dual seeker would allow the same loadout to be used on missions where massed targets could be encounterd and the potential for a mingled front line trace or collatoral damage exists.

I don't know how Brimstone works but I would suspect the missile is provided with target coordinates in the pre-launch phase to get it headed in the right direction prior to it's own seeker taking over.
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Yeah, but I really doubt that one would even try to perform CAS with laser guided Brimstones on a high threat battlefield were two mech/armoured forces are intermingled.

Nobody is going to lase individual tanks while two armoured battalions are fighting at point blank range with diffused frontlines nor is a fastmover going to linger over such a battlefield to ID and lase individual tanks.

Brimstone on fastmovers on a high threat battlefield is going to be used for interdiction and for CAS were the frontlines are still seperated. And in such situations the MMW seeker is going to be good enough.

The same way a Longbow is not going to riple fire it's Hellfire IIs or a battery of SPHs firing a SMARt fire mission when two enemyarmoured forces are closely entangled.
 

Gremlin29

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
If the front lines are seperated to the extent that radar guided missiles can be used, you're no longer performing CAS, you can call it CAS but that doesn't make it so. Again the issue with radar guidance is the inablity to PID targets. Not an issue when only air assetts are being employed but once friendly ground forces are engaged that type of missile is no longer a viable munition anywhere near the FEBA, if one even exists.

As a user of both RF and SAL missiles I am merely pointing out the potential merit of a dual seeker system and not specifically endorsing the concept.
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
You are the expert in this but isn't it a little bit unrealistic to achive this ID/engagement capability with a fast mover over a high threat battlefield against a halfway competent and technological advanced foe?

It comes down to a fast mover being able to service 1-2 targets per attack run, which in total is not so good if you have to risk a fast mover for it.

It is totally ok in Afghanistan or Lybia to have fast movers circle overhead while they or FACs on the ground lase targets for them which are taken out one after the other but not over a high threat battlefield. There it is making a run or two against enemy ground targets and hope not to get caught by enemy AA assets.

Maybe we are talking about different things. I am fully with you that in many current conflicts laser guidance is well liked and needed. But I doubt that fast movers in a heavy threat environment will have many opportunities to employ laser guided Brimstones and seriously affect the course of battle with it.

Don't think of USA vs some totally overmatched 2nd/3rd world country but of something like India vs Pakistan.
 

Gremlin29

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
An aircrafts ability to service not just any target, but a viable enemy target is the basis by which success will be gauged . Without PID, you can't properly engage targets because you don't know what it is, you're actually targetting. That's not to say it wont be done however it will not be with predictable success. Just getting a platform into the area and delivering ordenance a successful strike does not make, and that's my point. Can it be done? Sure, but to what end if you're not actually destroying enemy assetts? That's all I'm saying.

LGB's have been used with great success for many years in high threat environments, wouldn't a missile be no less successful?
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Sure, I agree with you. I think I have problems articulating what I mean. With the Brimstone one has the advantage to be able to hang alot of them under a fastmover. But if one uses laser designation one still has to engage one target after the other while cyrcling over the battlefield. This is ok in theaters like Afghanistan and Lybia and for a country like the US which has the ability to stomp every air defense network and individual AD assets into the ground it would be usefull in most situations.

But imagine a war between countries which are much closer in capabilities. Can you imagine fast movers cyrcling over the fulda gap plinking one surely IDed tank after the other?
The same can be said for other countries like for example India and Pakistan or South and North Korea in the initial stages of a new Korean war. There it is about sortie generation and servicing as many targets as possible with every sortie while the NK AD is still very alive if outdated.

And there is where I see the advantage of the MMW version. For such scenarios plinking individual tanks with laser guided weapons isn't as usefull as in other scenarios.
 

Gremlin29

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I agree RF missiles can be launched en masse against the proverbial wave of enemy tanks and that's what makes them attractive. And an RF missile is an obvious choice for maritime operations particularly because lasers don't work that well at sea. Playing devils advocate I would point out that the opportunity to use them is very very limited.

I would like to point out for your consideration the fact that laser designating systems are definately not constrained to singular targets. Even the Apache (which doesn't have the best system in service) can autonomously ripple fire SAL missiles.

Getting back to my original point regarding a dual seeker, the utility is in the flexibility of weapon delivery. If you are loaded with RF missiles only, the ability to deliver is more often than not, likely to be hindered by the dynamics of the battle field. A dual seeker makes complete sense to me, but only if it is not at the expense of reliability, cost etc.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
The real world problem with ground attack radar guided missiles is that they are indiscriminate. You simply can not PID targets with radar if friendlies and or non-combatants are within missile range (somewhat of rarity in this century). A dual seeker would allow the same loadout to be used on missions where massed targets could be encounterd and the potential for a mingled front line trace or collatoral damage exists.

I don't know how Brimstone works but I would suspect the missile is provided with target coordinates in the pre-launch phase to get it headed in the right direction prior to it's own seeker taking over.
Brimstone will hunt for targets within a specified area, the coordinates of which it is given before launch. It will not attack anything outside that area. It self-destructs if no targets are found. I don't know how the area is defined (radius from a point?). There are mechanisms to reduce the probability of multiple missiles attacking the same target, which with a single aircraft able to launch up to a couple of dozen in one pass, is obviously necessary.

The target areas is apparently precise enough that if you know all your tanks are on one side of a line, you can attack enemy tanks engaging them from the other side of it. An FAC on the ground reports enemy tanks in target box X: you launch missiles at that box.

Supposedly, it has other little tricks which can be used to limit what it will attack. It is not indiscriminate unless you tell it to be, & you can tell it to be very discriminating. Bit of a waste of all that cleverness to use it in laser-guided mode, really.
 
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