Go Back   DefenceTalk Forum - Military & Defense Forums > Global Defense & Military > Air Force & Aviation

Defense News
Land, Air & Naval Forces






Military Photos
Latest Military Pictures
Defense Reports
Aerospace & Defence


Argentina Air Force News and Discussion

This is a discussion on Argentina Air Force News and Discussion within the Air Force & Aviation forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by RobWilliams *arent Pakistani JF-17s more Westernised than Chinese variants? Pardon the digression, folks. Just going to answer ...


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old July 30th, 2015   #16
Defense Enthusiast
Corporal
No Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 131
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobWilliams View Post
*arent Pakistani JF-17s more Westernised than Chinese variants?
Pardon the digression, folks. Just going to answer Rob a bit.

All the talk about Westernization, AFAIK, fizzled because of cost concerns. Confirmed Western JF-17 components are Martin-Baker ejection seat and a French oxygen regulation system. Grifo radar didn't happen and Chinese KLJ-7 was selected for the mass production version. Pakistani sources differ on how much Western components will be used for JF-17 Block 2. I am not going to speculate on those.

By the way, where did you read about why JF-17 is binned by the Argentinians? I got no dog in this but would like to read up on what the Argentinians think about their air force modernization.
tonnyc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 30th, 2015   #17
Super Moderator
Lieutenant General
RobWilliams's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 2,757
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonnyc View Post
Pardon the digression, folks. Just going to answer Rob a bit.

All the talk about Westernization, AFAIK, fizzled because of cost concerns. Confirmed Western JF-17 components are Martin-Baker ejection seat and a French oxygen regulation system. Grifo radar didn't happen and Chinese KLJ-7 was selected for the mass production version. Pakistani sources differ on how much Western components will be used for JF-17 Block 2. I am not going to speculate on those.

By the way, where did you read about why JF-17 is binned by the Argentinians? I got no dog in this but would like to read up on what the Argentinians think about their air force modernization.
I was wondering because I had an impression PAF JF-17 were more Western (based on gut feeling) but reportedly Argentina seemed to want even more Westernisation.

It's in the Janes link a couple of posts above
RobWilliams is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 30th, 2015   #18
Just Hatched
Private
MastanKhan's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Bay area Calif
Posts: 9
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobWilliams View Post
I was wondering because I had an impression PAF JF-17 were more Western (based on gut feeling) but reportedly Argentina seemed to want even more Westernisation.

It's in the Janes link a couple of posts above
Hi,

For the JF 17 BLK 3---paf is going to add aesa---, It is between either the Chinese or the Italians. Paf says that it is happy with the KLJ right now. They may stick with the Chinese version of aesa---and the paf is happy with the RD93 as well.

For the JF 17---supposedly the Chinese refused to sell them the anti ship missiles---but the bottomline is that the Argentinians don't have funds. They don't have an infra structure to fight a war in Falkland.

A possible issue came up in installing Israeli electronics and European engine in the aircraft. That raised up the cost. So there are a lot more problems in this procurement.
MastanKhan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 31st, 2015   #19
Defense Enthusiast
Corporal
No Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 131
Threads:
Aw, I was hoping that you have a more direct source, e.g., articles from Argentinian publications. Thanks though.
tonnyc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 31st, 2015   #20
Super Moderator
Lieutenant General
RobWilliams's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 2,757
Threads:
It's tricky to follow accurately because seemingly the Argentine Govt doesn't publish a whole lot about their fighter procurement. I'm checking Argentine aviation forums to try find out what's happening but they have the same sources that we do.

As an aside, here's an interesting article.

Argentina chooses Israel over China for fighter jet purchase|WCT

Although this article says that it was cheaper than the Kfirs, there's a funny line that - according to Russia - China wouldn't sell AShMs to Argentina due to UK diplomatic pressure and that's why they didn't buy
RobWilliams is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 31st, 2015   #21
Defense Enthusiast
Corporal
No Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 131
Threads:
Want China Times is worthless as a source. Thanks for looking it up, but Want China Times simply does not have credibility.
tonnyc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 31st, 2015   #22
Super Moderator
Lieutenant General
RobWilliams's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 2,757
Threads:
Agreed, I just linked it for the particular chain of thought I picked out plus the roll eyes emoticon.
RobWilliams is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 8th, 2015   #23
Just a bloke
Major General
No Avatar
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 2,265
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by barney41 View Post
Not your father's Kfir. At a reported $20M and offering F-16 Blm 50 performance, should be a significant capability upgrade for the Argentines.

At 40 Years of age, Kfir Turns into a “Networked Fighter” | Defense Update:
It is 'offered' as providing 'F-16 Block 50 like' performance. Its only customer to date, Columbia, took them to Red Flag and is now looking to supplant them in favour of, you guessed it, Block 50 series F-16's, with the Kfirs used for ground attack and recce missions only...

I'm sure the upgraded Kfir provides enhanced capability compared to earlier models, but a degree of realism has to be placed on such claims.
ADMk2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 22nd, 2015   #24
Super Moderator
Lieutenant General
RobWilliams's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 2,757
Threads:
Argentina has reportedly retired their Mirage fleet, slashed the working hours of the service and cut the budget for supplies and personnel. The core of their air force is now made up of ~25 A-4AR aircraft.

No updates with respect to the supposed Kfir purchase.

Argentine Air Force cuts working hours, retires Mirage fleet - IHS Jane's 360
Wave Goodbye to the Argentine Air Force | War Is Boring
RobWilliams is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 22nd, 2015   #25
Super Moderator
Lieutenant General
No Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,916
Threads:
I think they are out of the warfighting business for now and any "new jets" deal should really focus around a LIFT platform with some limited weapons capability - anything you can hang a pair of winders off and that costs very little to run.
StobieWan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 23rd, 2015   #26
Super Moderator
General
swerve's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Reading, Berkshire
Posts: 6,674
Threads:
That requires admission that they're reducing to an air police force, coastguard, & border guard/internal security force.

But even the politicians who are reducing the armed forces to that level by failing to fund them won't admit it, or do anything that overtly shows what they're doing. It's disarmament by stealth, while publicly proclaiming support for the defence of the country with an occasional photo opportunity, e.g. in front of a refitted submarine (for which there is no money for operations or maintenance).
swerve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 23rd, 2015   #27
Super Moderator
Lieutenant General
No Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,916
Threads:
Very true - I think it'd be the smart thing to do but it'd be an uncomfortable thing to admit. Either way, they're in trouble.
StobieWan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 23rd, 2015   #28
Super Moderator
General
swerve's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Reading, Berkshire
Posts: 6,674
Threads:
For the current president & her husband who preceded her, the armed forces have long been seen as enemies (with good reason, in the past), so there's been no interest in funding them. But there are voters who want to believe the rhetoric of defending the country, 'recovering Las Malvinas', etc., so some pretence is useful to keep some of them (those who don't look too closely) on side.

Refitting a submarine in a domestic yard buys votes of shipyard & industrial workers - & industrial workers are traditional supporters of the current governing party. Ditto funding participation in the KC-390 programme. But they don't expect any military professionals to vote for them, so see no advantage in paying for anything more than a bit of theatre.
swerve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 1st, 2015   #29
Moderator
General
ngatimozart's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Posts: 4,202
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobWilliams View Post
Argentina has reportedly retired their Mirage fleet, slashed the working hours of the service and cut the budget for supplies and personnel. The core of their air force is now made up of ~25 A-4AR aircraft.

No updates with respect to the supposed Kfir purchase.

Argentine Air Force cuts working hours, retires Mirage fleet - IHS Jane's 360
Wave Goodbye to the Argentine Air Force | War Is Boring
I read the comments in the War Is Boring article and they made for interesting reading. The comment that the JF17 wasn't good enough for them - basically as one commentator put it, the Argie AF wanting a F22 from a JF17 appeared to speak volumes. So whilst the Air Force have lost their fighters, they are very proud and pride full. Given that the civilian govts have restricted their access to resources, this could have some of the AF officers start wishing for the old days and thinking about what used to be South Americas second favourite sport - putsches and military coups. Probably not a probability but maybe a possibility. If I was the current govt I would be keeping a very close eye on the AF in particular.
________________
"There is one immutable truth we cannot prevent; war is coming, we just don’t know when or where." Brigadier Andrew Harrison DSO MBE
ngatimozart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 1st, 2015   #30
Super Moderator
Lieutenant General
RobWilliams's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 2,757
Threads:
They wanted a Westenised JF-17 which nobody else was interested in funding, a similar scenario to a no-UK equipment Gripen, the result is massively high unit costs which they cannot afford.

It'd take a major political shift to turn their armed services (or at least navy/AF, no idea about the state of their army) into an effective fighting force.
RobWilliams is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:03 AM.