F-35 Fantasy or Fake F-35 Discussions Debunked

Palnatoke

Banned Member
Well, I'm going to take the cheap route and make a call to authority and say, with the sources at hand, that taking the F-16s out to 2029 is technically doable but a bad economical decision. :D."
Well I don't think highly about the authorativeness of those behind that claim.

Anyway I admit that 2030 is not helping us a lot, besides stalling a little bit longer, which seems to be what we are doing.
 

DEFENCEMASTER05

New Member
It seems that the F-35 is getting a lot of bad press lately, and there is no question that some of it is justified (the cost keeps going up and the delays are mounting). This article is quite damning:

Winslow T. Wheeler: The Self-Dismembering F-35

Here's a quote: "At 49,500 pounds in air-to-air take-off weight with an engine rated at 42,000 pounds of thrust, it will be a significant step backward in thrust-to-weight and acceleration for a new fighter. In fact, at that weight and with just 460 square feet of wing area for the Air Force and Marine Corps versions, the F-35's small wings will be loaded with 108 pounds for every square foot, one third worse than the F-16A. (Wings that are large relative to weight are crucial for maneuvering and surviving in combat.) The F-35 is, in fact, considerably less maneuverable than the appallingly vulnerable F-105 "Lead Sled," a fighter that proved helpless in dogfights against MiGs over North Vietnam. (A chilling note: most of the Air Force's fleet of F-105s was lost in four years of bombing; one hundred pilots were lost in just six months.)

Nor is the F-35 a first class bomber for all that cost: in its stealthy mode it carries only a 4,000 pound payload, one third the 12,000 pounds carried by the "Lead Sled."

As a "close air support" ground-attack aircraft to help US troops engaged in combat, the F-35 is too fast to identify the targets it is shooting at; too delicate and flammable to withstand ground fire, and too short-legged to loiter usefully over embattled US ground units for sustained periods. It is a giant step backward from the current A-10"

Is the F35 destined to be an all-time mega-expensive failure? Should partner countries start looking at other options? Your thoughtful comments, please.








I wouldn't be to concerned about the F 35 joint strike fighter program, to many countries have invested in this program. Their would just be delay's on deliveries that's all. The best thing Australia could do is build their own F35 joint strike fighters under licence from the US. This would help the US and be great for the Australian Defence Industry.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Thats not going to happen. While we might get additional building rights (like turkey fought for) it would add to the cost per plane and would take longer.

Australia is a partner nation that has had real benefits and production given to it. Australia seems pretty happy with that part of the F-35 program. The only part we aren't happy with was delivery dates, which were always going to be close for us anyway. Our rebarrelling went tits up which ment we had even less time than we thought. The F-111 are pretty much offline, and our F-18 are completely shagged.

Hence the Superhornet buy/lease. Which still means we can get a full loadout of F-35, but we can hang out a bit longer, get used to flying a aircraft with simular technologies and even once the F-35 deliveries go ahead, we don't have to be first dressed. We can also opt to keep some as electronic warfare varients if we want or pass them onto the USN which is pretty happy with the whole thing too.

Other airforces may have to perform simular leases/buys, that can be arranged. Hopefully the F-35 will stay on track. Its that sort of optioning that keeps countries like Australia which had a massive imperiative to get something *NOW* in the F-35 program. However, when it became clear we weren't going to get a silver bullet force of F-22's we were dead keen on staying in the F-35 program. It really is the best option if you have the money.
 

B3LA

Banned Member
Conspiracy Guy here....

I do not think that there's a chance in Hell that the F-35 project will be stopped now.
Too much US ego and US $ has already been invested in it.
The US have recklessly put all of their eggs in one dubious looking basket and all old wealthy
NATO members will be forced to buy from it.
They do not have any other options. Sure, they will put up a nice show for the public and they
will all barter and bicker over price and terms, but the bottom line is that classical :
"either you are with us, or you are against us".

Fine, that's the rules of the game and not much to complain about.

What does bother me however, is that all US allies might get an extremly expensive runt that
won't deliver what LM has promised and that the "western" air forces will become weaker from it.
That is not acceptable. Time will tell...
 

Sea Toby

New Member
What does bother me however, is that all US allies might get an extremly expensive runt that
won't deliver what LM has promised and that the "western" air forces will become weaker from it.
That is not acceptable. Time will tell...
All three prototype versions have flown, and have been for years. The prototype versions beat Boeing prototype versions in a flyoff watched and developed by the funds of several nations. This so called American aircraft is more a multi-nation program from the very start of the program than any previous aircraft. While there have been some setbacks, the program proceeds and many off the production line aircraft have been built and are being tested. Not once has anyone or any nation complained about the product as yet. Even the GAO and CBO, US government watchdogs, continue to support the program.

The testing program of the production line aircraft is continuing without much of any major setbacks. Since so many nations wish to buy this aircraft, this aircraft is going through the most comprehensive testing of any aircraft in history. So far the aircraft is passing all tests and meeting its specifications called for. For some reason uninformed people are questioning this aircraft. I suspect all of them have other agendas to undercut this aircraft falsely.

There is not ONE crumb of evidence that this aircraft won't deliver as promised. NOT ONE!
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
What does bother me however, is that all US allies might get an extremly expensive runt that
won't deliver what LM has promised and that the "western" air forces will become weaker from it.
That is not acceptable. Time will tell...
It is an aircraft that will dwarf all other current aircraft types in numbers built, so the chances of it being greatly more expensive than existing types, is extremely low.

It is an aircraft that is being designed with performance and agility levels superior to those possessed by F-16/F/A-18 aircraft.

It is an aircraft that even if some "downgraded" level "export" aircraft is built, will possess a level of low observability MANY times greater than any other aircraft currently available in the market.

It is an aircraft with outstanding range performance, fuel fraction and load carrying ability.

It is an aircraft with second to none, sensor, avionics and weapons capability.

It is an aircraft that will be EASY to maintain, even compared to current generation aircraft.

In short, it will be a superb aircraft for ANY nation who chooses to buy it. Thinking otherwise is delusional...
 

merocaine

New Member
I'm not sure if I'm reading you right, but to my eye, Wheeler would like to fight the way they did in WWII or Korea...
Well not they way America did at any rate.
They take there cue from how the German Army used Air power tactically in the early phases of the conflict. Rightly or wrongly they rubbish the F35 because it is not the best solution to how they believe a war should be fought. There is no surprise that they consider A10 to be Americas most important combat aircraft, its ability to provide close air support to to advancing troops is second to none.
 

GI-Gizmo

New Member
When lightning strikes . . .

The F-35 is a step forward, not backwards like the article tries to point out. Sure, you cannot escape the rules of aerodynamic mathematics which regulate performance on the basis of wing area, thrust-to-weight ratio and weight, but it is alot more complicated than predicting performance based on a few numbers. LockMart developed the Raptor and alot of that technology went into the Lightning II which makes it a leap ahead of any other multirole fighter on anyone elses CAD hard drive. The manufacturing process involves revolutionary building processes, advanced composites and metals and the Lightnings design is truly sensor evading which gives our pilots a huge advantage. The future of US airpower involves the Lightng linked with unmanned systems, force multipliers of all types, satellite sensors and communications and advanced weaponary to deliver cut-throat strikes to enemy forces while taking on and evading even the most advanced air defense systems and fighters. The end of digfighting has been declared many times before and has always been proven wrong once combat ensued. The distributed aperature system DAS, combined radio frequency and infrared SAIRST, the AN/APG-81 AESA radar, Barracuda EW suite combined with the helmet-mounted dispay system lets the pilot become one with the aircraft and use high-off boresight weapons to look and shoot at any target around the Lightning. When needed the 25mm cannon will also come in handy. The Lightnings on-board sensors are amazing and when meshed together with off-board sensors such as UAVs, AWACS, Satellites, etc. true sensor information fusion can occur which provides the computers, pilots and commanders with a real picture of what is going on and enables them to be a step ahead of the enemy and dominate the battlespace.
For strike and bombing missions the Lightning can fly low profile sorties for the beginning of the war when air space is still dangerous. Stand-off weapons can be used, as well as high altitudes or nap-of-earth flying. Once enemy air defenses are crippled the Lightning can be equipped with up to 18,000lbs. payload using external hardpoints. The electro-optical targeting system is like an advanced sniper XL targeting pod built in the aircraft, the AN/APG-81 AESA radar also has amazing capabilities in air-to-ground mode. It can map, detect movement and provide the pilots with a clear image of the ground during night and bad weather. The radar can also be used to jam, disrupt and destroy enemy radars and signals as well as be used as a high bandwidth communications method for friendly forces. It is a truly amazing multimode radar. For close air support the Lightning will use all of its advanced abilities to aid friendly forces and threaten and destroy enemy forces. Special sensors and munitions combined with advanced gear and gadgets that ground forces will have by the time the Lightning becomes the main CAS platform will enable it to provide quick, pinpoint, exact and devastating air cover.
 

merocaine

New Member
Special sensors and munitions combined with advanced gear and gadgets that ground forces will have by the time the Lightning becomes the main CAS platform will enable it to provide quick, pinpoint, exact and devastating air cover.
Its the aim of the US armed forces to maintain full gadget domanince. :)
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
Well not they way America did at any rate.
They take there cue from how the German Army used Air power tactically in the early phases of the conflict. Rightly or wrongly they rubbish the F35 because it is not the best solution to how they believe a war should be fought. There is no surprise that they consider A10 to be Americas most important combat aircraft, its ability to provide close air support to to advancing troops is second to none.
Mmmm. That's what I had in mind. The Germans are a better analogue.
 

Viktor

New Member
I liked mutch more McDonald Douglas JSF project than this F-35.
Its range/payload/speed/agility etc are under every common sense for a future fighter and by my opinion it is obsolete the moment its made. Its one big mistake.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
I liked mutch more McDonald Douglas JSF project than this F-35.
Its range/payload/speed/agility etc are under every common sense for a future fighter and by my opinion it is obsolete the moment its made. Its one big mistake.
Compared to what?
 
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Aussie Digger

Guest
I liked mutch more McDonald Douglas JSF project than this F-35.
Its range/payload/speed/agility etc are under every common sense for a future fighter and by my opinion it is obsolete the moment its made. Its one big mistake.
Do you mean Boeing? McDonnell Douglas hasn't existed since 1997...

Which tactical fighter has a better range/payload capability whilst remaining in a "stealth" configuration?

It's speed is adequate (Mach 1.6), fighters rarely ever get beyond this speed anyway and it's agility is designed to be superior to the F-16 and F/A-18 both notably agile aircraft.

Your criticism seems a bit "light on" for detail. Perhaps you could expand a bit so a proper rebuttal can be made?

Cheers.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
One quick comment though, AD, there are nations for whom it will not be a good buy. Obviously nations who can't afford to maintain a modern fighter jet. But also nations who are not expecting high-tech conflicts in the near future, and are concerned about developing domestic industry through ToT, and licensed production. China and India come to mind. Brazil seems to be following a similar pattern.
 

Viktor

New Member
But before being taken over by Boeing, it had submitted a JSF proposal, supported by Northrop Grumman & BAe. I presume that's what he means. It was eliminated in 1996.

Some pictures
Thats it. good old McDonald ... so sad it faded away.

As I read it the project was dismissed because it was far to advanced at time.
 

Viktor

New Member
Do you mean Boeing? McDonnell Douglas hasn't existed since 1997...
Look at the swerves post above.

Which tactical fighter has a better range/payload capability whilst remaining in a "stealth" configuration?
F-22 ... and will most likely have China 5th generation and Russia/India PAK-FA....

It's speed is adequate (Mach 1.6)
Its not.


It's speed is adequate (Mach 1.6), fighters rarely ever get beyond this speed
Yes only problem is rarely offently occures in fight and than what? ... Besides its Mach 1.6 is its max speed .. for how long its able to keep up with such small speed ...

and it's agility is designed to be superior to the F-16 and F/A-18 both notably agile aircraft.
Its being designed to be .. but turned out not to ...


Your criticism seems a bit "light on" for detail. Perhaps you could expand a bit so a proper rebuttal can be made?
Well LM since I last time checked out removed celling from its page (witch was about 15 000m first time I sow) ... so how can you expect any detailed info from me ...
 
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