Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) News and Discussions

swerve

Super Moderator
... What is a bit less clear is that whilst the GlobalEye platform is new, with the first flight taking place in 2018, it is less clear how new the Erieye radar design fitted aboard the GlobalEye platform. The Erieye radar was developed under a Swedish contract with Ericcson dating back to the mid-1980's, and versions of the radar have been fitted to a number of different aircraft like the Saab 340, Saab 2000, Embraer R-99/EMB-145 and now Global 6000/GlobalEye. AFAIK the first Erieye radar set entered service with the Swedish AF in 1996, fitted to twin prop Saab 340 airliner and known as the S-100 Argus. I would be quite surprised if there had not been improvements upon the radar array's capabilities over the years but I would not at this point consider it a 'new' radar design. ...
From what I've read, Erieye ER seems a grandfather's axe version of Erieye. It looks the same (fits the same housing) but there may not be much left of the original radar. The TRMs are all new, GaN instead of GaAs, for a start, & the back end hardware has been updated. Software? Who knows? SAAB says both maximum range & ability to detect small targets are improved considerably.

It was reported a few years ago that Brazil was replacing the Erieye radars in its E-99 AEW aircraft with Erieye ER, BTW.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
From what I've read, Erieye ER seems a grandfather's axe version of Erieye. It looks the same (fits the same housing) but there may not be much left of the original radar. The TRMs are all new, GaN instead of GaAs, for a start, & the back end hardware has been updated. Software? Who knows? SAAB says both maximum range & ability to detect small targets are improved considerably.

It was reported a few years ago that Brazil was replacing the Erieye radars in its E-99 AEW aircraft with Erieye ER, BTW.
This gets into one of those areas where unfortunately there really just is not sufficient information out in the public domain to determine certain things.

One way I tend to look at the relationship between the original Ericsson Erieye radar to consider whether the relationship is like that of the F-15's APG-63, with the newer Erieye ER radar being more like the APG-63(V)1 or is it more like APG-63(V)2 or even APG-63(V)3. Unfortunately we just cannot really tell from what is out in circulation.

This also makes attempts to compare with the Northrop Grumman MESA fitted to the E-7 rather tricksy, because there is little we know for certain with that either. The operating band (IEEE L-band) is known, as is the basic frequency range. We know that it was developed as an Electronically Scanned Array. We also know that the arrangement of T/R modules in the radome 'top hat' is such that 360 degree coverage is provided. What kind of T/R modules are being used, how many, what their individual and/or collective RF power out is, etc. These are all things we do not know.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
This also makes attempts to compare with the Northrop Grumman MESA fitted to the E-7 rather tricksy, because there is little we know for certain with that either. The operating band (IEEE L-band) is known, as is the basic frequency range. We know that it was developed as an Electronically Scanned Array. We also know that the arrangement of T/R modules in the radome 'top hat' is such that 360 degree coverage is provided. What kind of T/R modules are being used, how many, what their individual and/or collective RF power out is, etc. These are all things we do not know.
Defence platforms are often a function of how much money and resources are thrown at them, as much as they are size, number of weapons, man power etc.

E7 seems to be selected by pretty much all the top tier technology operators, and seems to have a lot of money being thrown at it and projects around it, by some of the largest defence spenders on the planet, who are dealing with the greatest threats. It is a maturing program, of decades, and combat proven. Grumman has a fair bit of radar experience and has access to a lot of the US technology tree in this area.

Not sure if the services have added ridiculous requirement changes from the designs already in service with Australia, Turkey and S. Korea, or if Boeing is trying to pad the invoice. Honestly I suspect it is at least a bit of both.

The newer aircraft and those AUKUS nations are very different aircraft configurations from the original E7 spec. Consoles, software, processing, coms are all very, very different. Its essentially a fork in the E7 development. The US kind of is using the basic E7 platform, but is supersizing, modernising every aspect of it (which was already very good and very capable), which UK is incorporating many aspects, and Australia is updating many aspects, the 3 seek commonality. No one else is in that grouping. The consoles now have two screens instead of one, they are already in Australian aircraft and US and UK ones are following suit. Technology sharing between those partners is very easy. Turkey on the other hand may not be able to acquire those upgrades, and SK may not be interested in those upgrades. Particularly because both operate small fleets, and significant upgrades right now, would see that fleet essentially become grounded.

The US can sort of afford this, because the existing E7 is there as a fall back. If ambitious software plans don't quite workout, then the existing software will do the job. But the US very, very much wants advanced features. Ukraine operations highlight how far the E3 is from being able to work in the modern battlefield, and how the E7 is absolutely an excellent fit.

E-2s are very much their own thing. SK and JP has E2s. They just bought more. But they aren't exactly cheap either. They are possibly more suited for ocean work, operating from short island/mountain fields, that things like E3's or E767 would be difficult to operate out of. But the 737 is better in that regard than E3 or 767s..

Oh it would be fun to be on a E2 flying over Canadian artic land for many hours, in a E2, as a job.. I would be talking to E2 operators and users about that. Israel and Singapore can explain why even with conscription, finding people willing to do that can be hard. Long hummers can be uncomfortable. Particularly if allies are microwaving toasties wearing fluffy slippers while playing texas holdem on longer missions. Perhaps with Canada's drive for social liberalisim, it will attract more people with S & M fetishes into the military.

Again Australia operates Tritons in that space. Each piece of equipment is kind a designed around different needs. It is at sea search and rescue and coordination required? E7 can and do operate at sea.. But surface scanning large sections of ocean and ocean air, are probably better done by triton. Particularly if there aren't any other manned platforms around in a remote space.

For areas where you have a lot going on the E7 with just a few other assets can provide real presence.

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IMO Canada considering the E7 is also part of Canada considering AUKUS type membership. Pillar 2 or what ever they want to call it. There isn't really a huge security concern with Canada, but there are definitely world view, and defence spending issues. I guess it also depends on what sort of capability they think they will need, and where.

IMO as rich middle power, in the near Austro-Anglo-American alliance club, E7 would be the benchmark. And I would be following where the Americans are throwing mega bucks at a platform, particularly when its cheap to operate, and affordable to buy. Americans are pretty much kings of software integration, and on a platform where integration is everything, would seem like a pretty easy fit.

After all why buy F-35's if you are going to go with non-integrated command and control platforms, vectoring 5th gen aircraft with morse code coordinates pilots plot on paper maps.

But I am going to hose myself off and keep out of this discussion. Dealing with Canadians, I feel all sticky from maple syrup..
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
One liners aren't allowed. Neither is baiting mods.. I reserve the right too reapproach the situation at any time.

I hope my absence allows free and ranging discussion about Canadian air force issues, in a productive, informative, friendly way. Hopefully allowing Canadians to form real productive and achievable strong decisions as part of their learning journey and inform wider public discussion within Canada to support their world view and their place within it.

I will try to sit in the corner observing. Abiding by my prime directive as best as I can.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
I am going to put the AEW discussion on my back burner. There are simply too many unknown variables within the evaluation equation along with the weighting applied to these variables, price, performance, Canadian content, and long term sustainability. The biggest variable is pollies C-Fing the whole program. Improving the public perception, I think I have expressed my opinion on that!
 
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