Australia should withdraw its invitation for Chinese President Xi Jingping’s visit to Australia. HMAS Hobart was participating in a UN operation enforcing sanctions against North Korea when this incident took place, let’s see if the UN shares Australia’s concerns.
Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0
- Thread starter OPSSG
- Start date
Not a good look that this occured straight after the CNs conversation with his counterpart.
It's basically an FU, we can do what ever we want.
Somewhat disturbing, but no great suprise. I feel for the pilots.
China's tactic is to make operating in this region as difficult as possible, without risking actual shooting. They will pick on less defendable (such as helos, P8s and less armed coast guard vessels) or distressed assets (Toowoomba) to harass. They won't directly target a major warship like Hobart or a combat aircraft such as an F35.
It's not a new tactic. I remember working in the MEAO in the late 90s/early 2000s where the Iranians used to frequently target our rhibs when working away from the ship's protection. It forced us to change our approach.
Also, I think it was in about 2000, that a Chinese J8 buzzed a US EP3 and the two had a mid air crash. I remember the Chinese pilot died in that incident and the EP3 landed on a Chinese air base. So this has been going on for a while.
Sadly, this is the new norm. We will need to adapt to working in this environment. Do we start sending ships in convoy in this region. Or operate helos and rhibs closer to the ship. Perhaps we deploy an F18/F35 squadron to the Philipines to provide overwatch protection for sea and air assets.
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I wonder what distance our helicopter was from HMAS Hobart.
Concerning times.
If these "accidents" continue it will end up with a fatality.
How do we respond.
Militarily, politically or economically.
The later will show we are serious.
That's our tangible FU.
Tough call.
Best of luck to those operating in that part of the world.
Cheers S
I think our tangible FU is to keep operating in the area. Expand the frequency of exercises and agreements with other nations such as the Philipines, Korea, Indonesia and Japan. Invite India to do exercises with us as well. Do more foriegn port visits through the SE Asian region. Spend more time in the S Pacific islands.
Follow the US with a forced TicTok sale. Sell lithium and nickel to other battery manufacturers (LG is now a major customer).
It uses the same strategy as applied to the recent product bans for barley, wine, coal and seafod. Hold the line, work with allies, keep talking and smile.
Follow the US with a forced TicTok sale. Sell lithium and nickel to other battery manufacturers (LG is now a major customer).
It uses the same strategy as applied to the recent product bans for barley, wine, coal and seafod. Hold the line, work with allies, keep talking and smile.
Agreed the most appropriate thing to do is to continue operations without escalating.
In fact sending a frigate instead of a destroyer has its advantages as it sends a message that we don't need to send out best.
Had the OPVs been ordered with hangars and helicopters they would be ideal for these presence missions. Having a ship there doing its job is the important thing, sending the biggest meanest ship you have can backfire as it, rather than being perceived as strength, can be seen as a fear response.
In fact sending a frigate instead of a destroyer has its advantages as it sends a message that we don't need to send out best.
Had the OPVs been ordered with hangars and helicopters they would be ideal for these presence missions. Having a ship there doing its job is the important thing, sending the biggest meanest ship you have can backfire as it, rather than being perceived as strength, can be seen as a fear response.
iambuzzard
Active Member
If the Chinese government don't reign in their cowboys we'll end up with someone crossing a line and we'll end up with the kinetic war none of rational people want.
This has been widely commented on previously in diplomatic circles. These type of shenanigans will eventually have very bad outcomes, perhaps unintended, and cold goes to hot.
Maybe some within the Chinese military don't want Xi and Albo to get along.
Once you fire up your military, and encourage them right to the edge, sometimes its hard to pour cold water, particularly if they are heavily indoctrinated and fanatical.
Having incidents like this reported, recorded, raised, at least makes it clear when things do kick off, how and why.
It also highlights that we don't have 20 years to prepare, or 10, or 5.. We are going to experience a lot of first of its type events in the next 2 years. Maybe its time we stop chasing big new platforms, and start chasing the here and now.
One of the concerns I have with being seen a junior partner in an alliance with the US is that we are much more likely to be targeted than the US. While the Chinese would obviously not want to go up against the US directly it could be tempted to have a go at one of its allies to test US resolve.
This is why we should really we should be pushing for a united response from our allies over this. It may not seem like an earth shattering confrontation but it is the thin edge of the wedge and it should be made clear that this behaviour will not be tolerated by us or our allies.
This is why we should really we should be pushing for a united response from our allies over this. It may not seem like an earth shattering confrontation but it is the thin edge of the wedge and it should be made clear that this behaviour will not be tolerated by us or our allies.
Super dumb of China to think like that..
If there was ever a single ally that dragged the US directly into a huge and massive conflict in the Pacific... Different circumstances, but you would think the US-AU alliance is in pretty good shape. Of all the alliances you could try to pick apart, pretty dumb one to start with. Also its not like politically we are divided on issues like defence and China.
But we are in the period of dumb. Many in Imperial Japanese leadership thought attacking the US was also, pretty dumb, and would make things very difficult going forward. But that went and happened.
We have to be realistic about what is likely and possible to occur (within) the next few years.
If I remember correctly, Albo and Wong were very critical of how the previous government dealt with China, and said something along the lines of watch how we do it....
Predictable ‘I hate Albo’ post from you. How about Abbott ‘shirtfronting’ Putin? See? Moaning about ’ Labor bad -LNP are geniuses’ is pointless and irrelevant You're ex-Navy? Good. Talk about Navy stuff. We can all read in newspapers what’s going on, post your complaints there.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Fair comment. I hate Albo. I'm not a fan of any of our parties fullstop.
No not ex Navy. Post was really about China, when the coalition were in govt, they were very critical of the CCP , and Labor were very critical of the way the Liberals handled them. The ALP thought it was all about politics and their approach would be better, and it was for a while, but it goes to show that no matter who is in government, the CCPs adgenda is not going to change, they are owning the South China Sea and areas of international water, and no matter what we try and do about it, they will continue to disrupt us until they are forced to stop.....question is how will that happen?
The whole thing with China is what they are doing is provocation. They continually conduct provocative acts to get a response so they can play the aggrieved party and sprout their propaganda.
Having our pollies carry on like school kids, making threats they can't back up, is a win for China.
Having our pollies carry on like school kids, making threats they can't back up, is a win for China.
Maybe, but they’re reporting it as defending their own national interests.
Firstly, it has to be said we are in their backyard. The ADF/Minister hasn’t released how close we were to national airspace (or their new claim, shadowing Chinese Naval Drills).
Secondly, is 1000ft/200ft vertical really that “unsafe/unprofessional” (requiring rapid manoeuvre to “avert disaster”)? Sounds like a pretty standard “headbutt”.
Last, the UK CAS is right… the best way to show that it is unsafe and unprofessional conduct, if we are really so aggrieved, is to publicise it through releasing video evidence. Repeatedly coming out with words, and protests, only allows space for a counter narrative. How naive will the ADF continue to be?
Can we keep the at least Australian internal politics out? I don't think it is helpful in this situation anyway. What are the alternatives? Don't deploy to UN missions? Go in weapons hot, and light up any plane? I don't think that is the RoE the UN is running for that mission. So maybe Australia should leave the UN entirely? Attack the UN? Oppositions are always critical, that is pretty much their job. Oppositions are going to, oppose? They aren't called the Agreers.
That fact that both sides have experience the same issues with China, seems to point to China being the problem, and perhaps, there is no way around these difficulties.
Its also not uncommon, that when progress with China is being made, then some incident happens. Which then quickly unravels everything.
Again, China could change its behavior, or how it approaches countries like Australia, who has no territorial claims in the SCS, is not a global hyperpower, is absolutely no threat economically or military or diplomatically to China, have no historical grievances, and we have a huge a profitable trade relationship, and are 10,000km away from each other.. If any relationship should all be Panada's and Koalas, wine and cheap cars, its Australia and China.. It also signals to countries like Japan, SK, US, Philippines, that if AU and CN can't get along, there is absolutely not point in appeasement with CN on any level.
That we are all, destined for conflict. No more point in hiding that fact. No point in avoiding long range weapons, or systems that might upset them, no point in hoping for diplomatic solutions to solve everything and risking our preparedness under that hope.. That our trade relationship with them, is unlikely to ever be restored to good terms, that is essentially lost. That we can expect increasing frequency and intensity of events over the next 24-36 months, with no intention of ever seeking resolution, and for no reason that it is the paths we are locked into.
That is when we look at how well we have prepared for this situation and realize, holey crap, we are in more trouble than the early settlers. We are very poorly prepared and it will take some absolutely amazing feats to even meet the challenges half way.
Fair point, lots of posturing and politicing involved.
The presence mission is a funny one, some times just being there is enough, no sabre rattling or shirt fronting requires.
The sort of thing where an OPV or modern day sloop would be perfectly adequate. "Hey we are just here saying hello to our friends and meeting our UN obligations, no need to feel threatened by our patrol vessel".
Going about our business in a non threatening manner, i.e. with a non threatening platform, can have its advantages.
Many may not like Sea Shepard but they know how to exploit the media.
On a tour of one of their vessels the comment was " If it was not on video tape it didn't happen!
The ADF/government needs to be much smarter in its response.
We live in a media / visual world.
Such imagery should be apart of your arsenal.
As for being in China's back yard, I agree it can look like we are playing the bully to hedge them in.
On the other hand the maritime backyard is a shared space with many other nations who also have rights.
China seems to have its own set of rules backed up by huge military grow and concerning words of intent.
How this ends I cannot say but as a maritime nation we do have a responsibility to ourselves and other like minded states to defend what we value.
China seems not to value others rights internally or externally.
Its concerning
Regards S