Marine Nationale (French Navy)

[Ananda]

Xavier on board French FREMM DA (Air Defence Variance) Loreinne. This not only the last of two FREMM DA, but also the last of present batch 8 FREMM for Marine Nationale.

Basically Xavier give short video presentation on showing the difference between the two FREMM DA toward the first six FREMM that more focus on Submarine Warfare.

 

[Scott Elaurant]

Xavier video on PANG, however in French. However it shown more detail on latest model iteration. I don't speak French, thus only guess what they are talking from the model. Quite interesting the size difference between Rafale Marine and NG Fighter Marine. This is perhaps one of the reason why significant increase on dimensions between PANG and CDG.

Ananda I have found a handy trick with these foreign language videos in Youtube is to watch it in a separate Youtube Tab, go into settings on the video, set Subtitles to “On” and then you get an option for English translation. I have watched several videos on the new Suffren SSN this way and have learnt a lot. The translation is clunky and the grammar often poor, but you get the gist of it.

 

[ngatimozart]

Ananda I have found a handy trick with these foreign language videos in Youtube is to watch it in a separate Youtube Tab, go into settings on the video, set Subtitles to “On” and then you get an option for English translation. I have watched several videos on the new Suffren SSN this way and have learnt a lot. The translation is clunky and the grammar often poor, but you get the gist of it.

Thanks for that Scott. It's really handy to know.

 

[SolarisKenzo]

Fincantieri Lays Keel of French Navy’s 2nd BRF Forward Section - Naval News

OCCAR announced that Fincantieri laid the keel of the forward section of the second force replenishment vessel (BRF - Bâtiments Ravitailleurs de Force in French) for the French Navy on 6 December 2022.

www.navalnews.com

Fincantieri, Castellammare ( Naples )

 

[John Fedup]

Not sure if this has appeared on another thread but this article describes the repair of the SSN Perle. Have to like the term Frankensub!

France's Frankensub: How a damaged nuclear sub was repaired with leftover parts - Breaking Defense

As a result of the procedure, the Perle is now 75 meters long, more than a meter longer than it was pre-surgery.

breakingdefense.com

 

[Ananda]

La marine très satisfaite du SNA Perle après sa réparation et sa modernisation | Mer et Marine

Un satisfecit. C’est ce que donne le nouveau chef d’état-major de la Marine nationale à Naval Group suite à la récente remise en service du sous-mari...

www.meretmarine.com

Marine Nationale satisfied with the trial of their SSN Perle. Means this Sub will be accepted for another cycle of operational service, and keep Marine Nationale I believe 2 SSN on operational condition all the time.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

The French defense procurement agency (DGA) ordered on 17 November 2023 seven new offshore patrol vessels (OPV) as part of the "Patrouilleurs Hauturiers" program for the French Navy (Marine Nationale) to replace the D’Estienne d’Orves-class avisos. The last six remaining vessels of this 1100 t class still in active service were delivered in the '80s.

These 7 new OPVs will have a displacement of around 2400 t, more than twice of the 40+ years old avisos and almost as heavy as the Floréal Class of frigates. The Floréal Class frigates are planned to be replaced by the European Patrol Corvettes, which are even larger and heavier.

This trend of continuously growing naval vessels (size inflation) in the last two decades is really worrying.....

France's DGA Orders 7 New OPV for the French Navy - Naval News

The French DGA ordered seven new offshore patrol vessels (OPV) as part of the "Patrouilleurs Hauturiers" program for the French Navy...

www.navalnews.com

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

The last of the three to be modernized La Fayette Class frigates is finished. In my opinion all five ships of this class should be modernized in these times of instability and increase in threats.
The Marine Nationale needs something better than the D'Estienne d'Orves-class avisos to patrol in the French overseas regions in the other parts of the world.

Naval Group completes the modernization of the third and last frigate of the La Fayette class - Naval News

After 6 months of work followed by a series of dockside and sea trials, Naval Group has completed the modernization of the Aconit, the third La Fayette frigate (FLF).

www.navalnews.com

 

[kato]

The Marine Nationale needs something better than the D'Estienne d'Orves-class avisos to patrol in the French overseas regions in the other parts of the world.

The d'Estienne d'Orves class is not used in the overseas regions, but - based en Metropole - in European French waters (ZEE Metropolitaine) and what France considers immediately adjacent areas, i.e. mostly the African west coast up to the Gulf of Guinea (Operation Corymbe) and the Mediterranean. The Patrouilleurs Hauturiers are planned for the same theater.

For overseas areas, in particular the Indopacific, France recently began commissioning the Patrouilleurs Outre-Mer (Felix Eboue class), which are the same size as the d'Estienne d'Orves class. These replace the already decommissioned P400 class patrol boats and some patrol tugs. Will be two each stationed in New Caledonia, Tahiti and Reunion by 2026.

In my opinion all five ships of this class should be modernized in these times of instability and increase in threats.

The La Fayette upgrade is a stopgap measure to bridge over until full commissioning of FDI, and therefore only covers for the three FDI that are not planned to be commissioned within the next two years (or rather: that were pushed into the next 7-year plan).

The two non-upgraded ships are planned to have their obsolete air defence removed and be entirely relegated to patrol missions in Europe, with a possible replacement by two out of the option for three further Patrouilleurs Hauturiers in the early 2030s (*). Until then 7 PH and 2 FLF numerically replace the current ZEE Metropolitaine based patrol setup of 6 d'Estienne d'Orves and 3 Flamant class vessels (the latter being based in Cherbourg for monitoring the now EU-exterior sea border to the UK).

(*) offhand the other additional Patrouilleur Hauturier is for replacement of Fulmar, a patrol tug based in St. Pierre et Miquelon.

 

[Ananda]

Multi-mission Capabilities Sit Central In France’s Future MPA Requirements - Naval News

France’s future maritime patrol aircraft (MPA) must deliver multi-mission capability and greater capacity.

www.navalnews.com

From Naval News on the potential candidate for French current MPA Atlantique 2. French seems looking to Airbus A320 MPA, something that being talk for years, however Airbus seems still not committed yet.



Personally, I do believe French better goes with Dasault Falcon 10X MPA version, rather then has to bargain with Airbus on 320/321 MPA. In paper it is being expected by the market as contender rival for Boeing 737 base P8. However I have doubt that French or other Euro nation can provide enough market for that. Considering outside Euro, those who practically can afford or have needs for MPA that class already use P8.

Falcon 10X MPA can also be more attractive toward MPA export market that need MPA more capable then Turboprop MPA, but can't afford or not need P8 class capabilities.

 

[Redlands18]

Multi-mission Capabilities Sit Central In France’s Future MPA Requirements - Naval News

France’s future maritime patrol aircraft (MPA) must deliver multi-mission capability and greater capacity.

www.navalnews.com

From Naval News on the potential candidate for French current MPA Atlantique 2. French seems looking to Airbus A320 MPA, something that being talk for years, however Airbus seems still not committed yet.

View attachment 51226

Personally, I do believe French better goes with Dasault Falcon 10X MPA version, rather then has to bargain with Airbus on 320/321 MPA. In paper it is being expected by the market as contender rival for Boeing 737 base P8. However I have doubt that French or other Euro nation can provide enough market for that. Considering outside Euro, those who practically can afford or have needs for MPA that class already use P8.

Falcon 10X MPA can also be more attractive toward MPA export market that need MPA more capable then Turboprop MPA, but can't afford or not need P8 class capabilities.

France should just bite the bullet and get P-8s. The P-8 pretty much has the top level MPA market sown up, France really needed to start this project 10 years ago to be competitive. The P-8 is already working alongside the E-2 in the USN and France will need to replace the E-3 sooner rather than later and the E-7 would be favourite at this stage, and the RAAF, RAF, USAF and RCAF all operate both aircraft and the RNZAF P-8s will be working with RAAF E-7s regularly and the Euro P-8 operators with NATO, RAF and USAF E-7s.

 

[Ananda]

France should just bite the bullet and get P-8s. The P-8 pretty much has the top level MPA market sown up, France really needed to start this project 10 years ago to be competitive.

I believe the concept of Airbus A320 MPA already rise up last decade. So the timing by Airbus to give competition to Boeing P8, is not late. The late ones are Euro government especially Franchise and German decision making.

Agree if they want to build P8 competitor, is rather late. If they build it, more likely it will end up as sole users, as Japan with their P-1. For that I do see more likely if they still want to goes with their industry, it is Dasault Falcon X being use as base. As trend shown, Frenchie like to go with their industries.

It's going to be below P8 performance, but still can be attractive to the export market. For those who can't afford, or who doesn't need, or who barred by US to have P8.

 

[Scott Elaurant]

Multi-mission Capabilities Sit Central In France’s Future MPA Requirements - Naval News

France’s future maritime patrol aircraft (MPA) must deliver multi-mission capability and greater capacity.

www.navalnews.com

From Naval News on the potential candidate for French current MPA Atlantique 2. French seems looking to Airbus A320 MPA, something that being talk for years, however Airbus seems still not committed yet.

View attachment 51226

Personally, I do believe French better goes with Dasault Falcon 10X MPA version, rather then has to bargain with Airbus on 320/321 MPA. In paper it is being expected by the market as contender rival for Boeing 737 base P8. However I have doubt that French or other Euro nation can provide enough market for that. Considering outside Euro, those who practically can afford or have needs for MPA that class already use P8.

Falcon 10X MPA can also be more attractive toward MPA export market that need MPA more capable then Turboprop MPA, but can't afford or not need P8 class capabilities.

For purely commercial reasons this project will be getting more and more difficult for France / Aerospatiale to justify at present. Problems at Boeing mean that the 737 is losing orders and Aerospatiale can’t build Airbuses fast enough. So why divert resources from Airbus sales when they finally have their rivals Boeing on the floor?

Airbus as of Jan 2024 had an order backlog of 8,599 aircraft, most A320s, which would be the basis of Atlantique 2.
Airbus and Boeing Report January 2024 Commercial Aircraft Orders and Deliveries.

 

[Scott Elaurant]

Sub Brief has a video out on the French Suffren (Barracuda SSN variant) submarine class.

Key points discussed are long development time, very useful ISR capabilities in sail masts, remarkable new sonar performance (Thales UMG 3000), new torpedo (F21) and relationship with Blackfin Barracuda (SSK version). THere is no mention of the recent sale to the Dutch navy of the SSK version. Aaron seems to express some scepticism on the claimed sonar performance. Presumably, the new Thales sonar would not be worse performing than the Astute’s Type 2076, which is now over 20 years old.

For the record my personal view is that Australia should have switched from the Attack Class to this SSN instead of AUKUS. It is not a question fo which is the better submarine, which in my view is academic. The Virginia is excellent now and the SSN AUKUS will be excellent in the future. However from a practical procurement and constructibility viewpoint Virginia production is struggling to meet demand and SSN AUKUS production is too far away to avoid a capability gap. Suffrens may not be superior to either, but they only have to be better than Chinese and Russian subs, which on all reports they easily are in both stealth and sensors. We could have been building these now with different politics. Also the cost would have been dramatically less, to the point where some other DSR cuts might not have happened.

 

[swerve]

For purely commercial reasons this project will be getting more and more difficult for France / Aerospatiale to justify at present. Problems at Boeing mean that the 737 is losing orders and Aerospatiale can’t build Airbuses fast enough. So why divert resources from Airbus sales when they finally have their rivals Boeing on the floor?

Airbus as of Jan 2024 had an order backlog of 8,599 aircraft, most A320s, which would be the basis of Atlantique 2.
Airbus and Boeing Report January 2024 Commercial Aircraft Orders and Deliveries.

Potentially, another company could modify the A320 into an MPA, just as SAAB has modified a couple of non-SAAB aicraft into AEW aircraft & Elta has converted Boeing airliners to tankers. But availability of new or low-hours used aircraft may be limited, because of the A320 backlog you mention.

The biggest Falcon is the 10X, I think, & it's much smaller than an A320. A220 is in between, but it's made in Canada (Quebec) & now also Alabama & there's no European engine option AFAIK. I expect France would prefer an aircraft which is at least partly French. The Atlantique/Atlantic ain't that big, though: there are bizjets with an equal or greater MTOW, e.g. the Falcon 10X.

 

[d-ron84]

Sub Brief has a video out on the French Suffren (Barracuda SSN variant) submarine class.

Key points discussed are long development time, very useful ISR capabilities in sail masts, remarkable new sonar performance (Thales UMG 3000), new torpedo (F21) and relationship with Blackfin Barracuda (SSK version). THere is no mention of the recent sale to the Dutch navy of the SSK version. Aaron seems to express some scepticism on the claimed sonar performance. Presumably, the new Thales sonar would not be worse performing than the Astute’s Type 2076, which is now over 20 years old.

For the record my personal view is that Australia should have switched from the Attack Class to this SSN instead of AUKUS. It is not a question fo which is the better submarine, which in my view is academic. The Virginia is excellent now and the SSN AUKUS will be excellent in the future. However from a practical procurement and constructibility viewpoint Virginia production is struggling to meet demand and SSN AUKUS production is too far away to avoid a capability gap. Suffrens may not be superior to either, but they only have to be better than Chinese and Russian subs, which on all reports they easily are in both stealth and sensors. We could have been building these now with different politics. Also the cost would have been dramatically less, to the point where some other DSR cuts might not have happened.

Here you are flogging this dead horse again.
The way the negotiations and engineering work were going with the Attack Class, we would be getting something that was way overbudget, under performing and extremely late. That is why we cut and run. The only reason we went SSN was the 30+ years of life for the US/UK reactors, no need to refuel in its life.
Going down the Suffren route would leave us beholding to the whims of the french gov every 7 years when we need to refuel, we use them someway they don't like or if trade negotiations are going our way, then "oh sorry, we cant refuel right now, oh well"