Indonesia: 'green water navy'

[Ananda]

Spain would certainly be happy to build a couple of improved F101/Hobarts, and they are desperate for more work with nothing coming after the last F110.

This Destroyer category as I put before is for AAW Frigate/Destroyer. So unless Navantia try to compete with Fincantieri on FREMM alternative, they have to give something with more VLS to compete with Chinese Type 052D offer. Type 052D have 64 VLS Spesifikasi Kapal Perusak Type 052D, Kombatan China yang Siap Diekspor ke Luar Negeri, thus if this is what Navantia try to counter, they should at least bring 32-48 VLS design.

Lobby partner with connection to political factions, is important on any defense procurement. Especially important for Indonesian defense procurement. Navantia is bringing ANK which is from what I gather is having reputation as long term Defense Insiders/Middle Man/Lobbyist.

Home

WHO WE ARE PT. Agrapana Nugraha Katara is a private company engaged in the trade of goods and services such as : ship / vessel engines and spare parts and accessories, clothing and equipment for the purposes of the Army / Police , aircraft parts / navigation tools, service

ankindonesian.com

This is why Indonesian defense enthusiasts quite buzzing on speculation on this deal. Unlike Fincantieri that bring local shipyard as Partner, Navantia so far shown no sign on that. Similar thing with Chinese offer that also come without local shipyard partner (at least so far the rumours is shown that).

For one thing China also tied in with lobbyist with strong political connection. However so far Euro and Turkish vendors that have gain traction more. Still nothing in sure thing when doing lobby in Indonesia. This is not Soeharto time anymore with one door policy. Now for at least two decades more, each political factions have more or less similar potential to goal their lobby. All depends on political bargain behind multiple doors.

Welcome to democracy, at least democracy Indonesian style.

Add:
On Chinese Destroyer offer, Indonesia can go with Thai ways when they procure Frigate from China. Naresuan Class basically is China Type 53 Frigate derivative, with US Weapons and Euro sensors. China from the rumours that I gather, also offer two option:

1. China build all package including weapons and sensors.​

2. China build the vessels but Indonesia can choose others propulsion. They even offer to send the vessels as FFBNW to be integrated by Indonesian yard with sensors and weapons they are choosing.​

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Something that Navantia need to prepare their own offer package as counter on China ones. For one thing, China can offer better prices.

​

 

[Meriv90]

What does Indonesia need?

Do you need a AAW Frigate? like a french FREMM-DA or a PPA FULL with more vls (the Radars on PPA Full should be on par with the FREMM).
A 2000-2010s European Destroyer like Horizon Class or Type 45 ?
Or a 2030 Destroyer that are literally 10k+ cruisers?

And what is the time frame? Because we are already planning the next generation you could get some good deals on some older class or newer class.

 

[Ananda]

What does Indonesia need?

Good question, as this moment the talk in media, officially they (Navy and MinDef) talk for Destroyer with AAW capabilities. However 'Destroyer' is very broad term as it could also mean Heavy Frigate. The speculation that come out is they aim for 2 of the ship on that capabilities. As I say before, it is actually not a new plan, as they (Navy) already plan it from the 90's.

Base on media report and rumours those who already submitted or hinted the offer (including some of ships that's being officially visited):

Dutch/Damen Zeven Provincien,
Chinese Type 054B,
Spanish/Navantia F101/110 derivatives.

Those are the types that's 'rumours' being offered, and it is also rumours that Fincantieri hinting on Orizonte Class derivatives. There are also speculation on ROK KDX-II. Thus considering the types being talk, the similarities:

• 5500-7000 tons,
• 145-160m
• 32-64 VLS.

On the time frames, like I said before, it is already decades old plan. I believe if they got budget they will try to get both of them within this Decade. Again the time frames so far just wild speculations base on rumours. All back to budget priority, and GP or ASW Frigates and Corvettes I suspect still priority.

However with Geopolitics development, who knows they can decide to fasten the procurement. The signs already shown that trend.

 

[Meriv90]

Since DDX and Type 83 are coming probably you could get a good offer on second Hand Horizon/T45. If you want to go Destroyer/Frigate distinction route.

If you want to go the Spanish/Dutch/Norwegian way with a strong AAW Frigate consider also that since we sold you the 2 PPA Fincantieri has to build another 2 PPA for the navy meaning that a new queque will be open probably with good pricing.

 

[StevoJH]

Since DDX and Type 83 are coming probably you could get a good offer on second Hand Horizon/T45. If you want to go Destroyer/Frigate distinction route.

If you want to go the Spanish/Dutch/Norwegian way with a strong AAW Frigate consider also that since we sold you the 2 PPA Fincantieri has to build another 2 PPA for the navy meaning that a new queque will be open probably with good pricing.

Not until after 2040 most likely for the first Type 45.

Do France or Italy even have a replacement program underway for Horizon yet?

 

[Meriv90]

No the DDX are supposed to replace the previous class of destroyers.

There is still no replacement plan and last year we approved the MLU

OCCAR, NAVIRIS and EUROSAM sign MLU Contract for French & Italian Horizon-class AAW Frigates - Naval News

On July 18, 2023, a ceremony was held at the OCCAR-EA premises, to celebrate the signing of the MLU Contract for the Horizon-class Frigates.

www.navalnews.com

But since we are selling right and left our own fleet you never know.

 

[koxinga]

Base on media report and rumours those who already submitted or hinted the offer (including some of ships that's being officially visited):

Dutch/Damen Zeven Provincien,
Chinese Type 054B,
Spanish/Navantia F101/110 derivatives.

Those are the types that's 'rumours' being offered, and it is also rumours that Fincantieri hinting on Orizonte Class derivatives. There are also speculation on ROK KDX-II. Thus considering the types being talk, the similarities:

• 5500-7000 tons,
• 145-160m
• 32-64 VLS.

Technically, both PPA and Red/White frigates or enhanced variants can meet this so called "AAW" requirement and there isn't a need for another new type/platform.

But seeing these rumoured examples, the common element is they feature powerful command and control capabilities, long range sensors. In particular, fitted with SM-3/Aster 30 later blocks or Chinese HHQ-9s, some limited anti-ballistic missile capabilities.

It seems this need goes beyond a big umbrella of anti-air capabilities, but some degree of anti-missile capabilities.

 

[Ananda]

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TNI-AL Chief in China visiting 2 Shipyard (Jiangnan in Shanghai and Wuchang in Wuhan) and UAV producers. Jiangnan Shipyard is producers of Chinese Frigates and Destroyers, while Wuchang is the shipyard in Wuhan that specialized in PLA SSK.

Keris FB quote info on Type 052D that's being presented (I believe in Jiangnan) while in Wuchang he got presentation of S26 SSK. As reminder this is practically export variance of Type 039 SSK, similar with what China offer to Thailand.

There's enough rumours now, just like AAW Destroyer/Frigate that's being source on Foreign shipyard, so does additional submarine as PAL will be hands full with NG Evolved Scorpene.

particular, fitted with SM-3/Aster 30 later blocks or Chinese HHQ-9s, some limited anti-ballistic missile capabilities.

Previously I always thought the Red-White/FMP will be build for more AAW, while PPA being more GP. Both with adequate ASW capabilities. Now this talk on more dedicated AAW destroyer perhaps as you have put, being prepare with longer range area defense plus limited ABM.

I don't think Indonesia prospect on SM-3 will be big, however Aster 3, or Chinese HHQ-9 and Turkiye Siper in paper seems will more or less provide similar capabilities. All three that's being hinted can be available to Indonesia.

While FMP if got Turkish missiles, more likely naval variance of Hisar O, while PPA already be hinted will have Aster 15. Both more to short-medium coverage.

So yes seems this AAW Frigate/Destroyer so far shown indication will be equip with something that have longer range capabilities then Aster 15 or Hisar O.

 

[koxinga]

It is not just about the missiles but the entire system (fixed faced AESA radar maybe S band for long range >500km, battle management) that you are buying. That would be the main difference with the previous AAW frigate options

The European option would probably be Thales Sea Fire + Senit/Taticos with Aster 30, and Turk option with Cafrad + ADVENT with Siper.

Well, that my guess.

 

[Ananda]

Yes it is the whole system that need to be integrating. This is why there're increasing public information battle between salesman. Between those who represents Thales-MBDA and Aselsan-Roketsan.

Thales off course with their agents try to maintain their market, especially with TNI-AL. Thus this market incursion from Turkiye, and now even those Chinese Sales Agents, will be interesting to see how Thales try to lobby this out.

 

[Ananda]

Not many photos on Indonesian Navy sole cruiser, the Sverdlov class KRI Irian. Especially after the fall of Soekarno. This photo that I found in one Indonesian defense sites originate from National Archives. Taken in 1970 during ceremony of New Navy Chief.

The Cruiser still in operational condition, but not doing much patrolling duties anymore. At least from information by that time. It is inform by TNI-AL archive, that three years from that time, the Cruiser send to Taiwan for scraping.

It is already outdated by that time, and hugely expensive to maintain. Especially with Soeharto relationship with USSR that time, means Indonesia need to buy spare parts in 'market' prices and not in 'friendly' prices of Soekarno era.

It is also rumoured that US give 4 Claud Jones class Frigate/Destroyer Escort as compensation for scraping KRI Irian. Seems the rumours come as those Claud Jones DE come to Indonesia at similar time frame on KRI Irian scraping.

 

[Ananda]

Two Small 40m Patrol Vessels being officially accepted by Navy Chief. This will be use in Eastern Indonesia waters. This vessels is tone down simpler version of 40m Missiles Boats. As why they call Fast Patrol Vessels (KCP) instead Fast Missile Vessels (KCR). For thar they will be only armed with 30mm gun and 2 12.5mm machine guns.

Honestly TNI-AL should relinquish more Patrol Duties to Coast Guard, as also this kind of Vessels. But heck, what do I know why the Navy still want to dominate maritime constabulary duties, instead the Coast Guard.