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Ways and means to prevent a future mass active shooter incident in the US

This is a discussion on Ways and means to prevent a future mass active shooter incident in the US within the Self Defense forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by Todjaeger Umm no Abe, it is not. It is in cultural geography. Which BTW is a little ...


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Old December 29th, 2012   #91
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Umm no Abe, it is not.
It is in cultural geography. Which BTW is a little bit different to physical geography. But I'm sure that you would have read my post and got the point.

BTW cultural geographers are pretty thorough in their assessments of local culture and plotting it on maps, far more so than a typical backpacker.
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Old December 29th, 2012   #92
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In Ameria we have the Appalachian mountains. There is an Appalachian culture that is unique, and fairly small. Mr. Woodard chose to use the term Appalachian to paint with a broad brush however to Americans, Appalachian describes a very specific culture and region most frequently associated with the term "hillbilly". Tidewater? Ask an American if they are from Tidewater and they will look at you like you have a 3rd eye. You may not understand this fully but your comment that many of us here are probably from Appalachia would be preceived by us as an insult ie we are uneducated backwards living people from the hills of Appalchia. Those people exist, they are small in number and probably aren't going to have a computer and if they do, will call it an "interwebs machine" or something like that.

I'm from Michigan so according to Woodard, a Yankee. Toadjaeger is from Connecticut and you don't get more Yankee than that. Woodard's using terms that have had a deep rooted and understood meaning for centuries and given them new meaning, for the sake of describing broad culture. Don't be surprised if when discussing culture with Americans they don't understand what you're talking about because very few people have ever heard of Collin Woodard or the names of various "cultures" he has rebranded with old and new names.
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Old December 29th, 2012   #93
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I'm from Michigan so according to Woodard, a Yankee. Toadjaeger is from Connecticut and you don't get more Yankee than that. Woodard's using terms that have had a deep rooted and understood meaning for centuries and given them new meaning, for the sake of describing broad culture. Don't be surprised if when discussing culture with Americans they don't understand what you're talking about because very few people have ever heard of Collin Woodard or the names of various "cultures" he has rebranded with old and new names.
Yeah fair enough. Personally I think the original national name, in line with the first effective settlement, is the best so “Yankeedom” would be “Puritan New England” and “Deep South” would be “Barbadian Carolina” but that might just be as confusing. The “Borderlander” term is probably better than “Appalachia” as that is a geographic term and the former explains the settlement origin (British and Irish borderer populations) as well as location. But all this is gold for outsiders trying to understand why America is so heterogeneous. Especially a place like Australia which despite its huge size and low population density has almost no noteworthy regional variations.
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Old December 30th, 2012   #94
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And for the sake of conversation I'm not saying I disagree with Woodard.

I think folks believe Americans are fairly homogenous. In reallity we are probably more like western europe with a common language. My neighbor was over today, she immigrated from South Africa 5 years ago. I asked her how America compared to what she expected. She said she didn't reallize that the laws of each state would be so different and that they are almost like their own countries. She was also surprised by the level of freedom we enjoy.
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Old December 30th, 2012   #95
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And for the sake of conversation I'm not saying I disagree with Woodard.

I think folks believe Americans are fairly homogenous. In reallity we are probably more like western europe with a common language. My neighbor was over today, she immigrated from South Africa 5 years ago. I asked her how America compared to what she expected. She said she didn't reallize that the laws of each state would be so different and that they are almost like their own countries. She was also surprised by the level of freedom we enjoy.
Interesting that you bring up South Africans.

From the info that I have, there are approximately 160,000 South Africans living here in Australia (second only to the UK with 200k+), in the US there are approximately 80,000, roughly double living here in Australia compared to the USA.

And a lot of them have chosen to live here in Sydney, I know quite a few and have worked with many too.

Here are some stat on gun deaths on some selected countries:

Statistics on Gun Violence in South Africa

Yes they are figures from 1998, but interesting all the same.

I'll repeat the stats below:

Country..........Firearm homicides..........Per 100,000 of population

Australia..................64..................... ..............0.36
Brazil.......................41 000............................25.78
Canada...................176...................... ...........0.6
Columbia................19 336............................53.99
South Africa............11 044...........................26.63
UK............................72.................. .................0.13
USA.........................16 524...........................6.24

So no doubt your South African friend is "surprised" by the level of freedom that you in the USA enjoy, and no doubt safety too, well that is, at least compared to their own country where gun deaths were "only" second to that of Columbia (per 100K of population) of all places!!!!

Whereas when they were living in SA, they had 26.63 gun deaths per 100K of population, now your SA friend "only" has to confront the issue of 6.24 gun deaths per 100K of population!!

By the way, in the same survey, in Australia it was 0.36 per 100K of population

And of all the South Africans that I know, they love it here too, the freedom that we enjoy in Australia, but especially the issue of guns in the community.

Yes its a hell of a lot harder for them to own guns like they did in SA, but do you know what?? They know they DONT need the same access to guns here because there isn't as many in circulation and they don't fear for their lives as they did back in SA!!!

Last edited by John Newman; December 30th, 2012 at 05:17 AM. Reason: Formating for table
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Old December 30th, 2012   #96
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By the way, in the same survey, in Australia it was 0.36 per 100K of population

And of all the South Africans that I know, they love it here too, the freedom that we enjoy in Australia, but especially the issue of guns in the community.

Yes its a hell of a lot harder for them to own guns like they did in SA, but do you know what?? They know they DONT need the same access to guns here because there isn't as many in circulation and they don't fear for their lives as they did back in SA!!!
Except for the South African family that was attacked by a psychotic neighbour, in Adelaide South Australia, who was armed with his father’s improperly stored shot gun.

Hectorville shooting family fled life of violence in South Africa | adelaidenow

Though we should be thankful he didn't have access to a semi auto 5.56 or 7.62mm rifle with detachable high capacity magazines.
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Old December 30th, 2012   #97
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Except for the South African family that was attacked by a psychotic neighbour, in Adelaide South Australia, who was armed with his father’s improperly stored shot gun.

Hectorville shooting family fled life of violence in South Africa | adelaidenow

Though we should be thankful he didn't have access to a semi auto 5.56 or 7.62mm rifle with detachable high capacity magazines.
Yes true,

Unfortunately that would fall into the 0.36 of gun deaths per 100K of population in Australia.

But if they were back in South Africa they may have been part of the 26.63 per 100K of the population.

No one here has suggested for one minute that gun crime doesn't continue to exist here in Oz, it has happened in the past, is still happeninge now and will into the future too.

Though as you and I know, at least the chance of a "crazy" going on the rampage with the sort of firepower available in both the USA and South Africa is pretty damm low.

And the other point you made was the lack of proper storage of the gun too.

Last edited by John Newman; December 30th, 2012 at 07:03 PM. Reason: fix typo
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Old January 2nd, 2013   #98
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Firearms in the U.S. has a history that goes back to the beginning of our nation, and even prior to that. While Europe was considered a civilized land, the America's were a wild and dangerous place. You used a gun for protection.

Our nation was founded by force, initially by civilians with arms that compared to what the English armies used. Civilians and Soldiers had similar weapons.

A large portion of the 2nd Amendment is to ensure this fact: Citizens have the right to overthrow a government that has stopped serving the people. Those who feel this is not the case need only to read beyond the Bill of Rights to see proof of what I say. Read the excerpts from Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, John Adams, and the other founding fathers and the discussion on the 2nd Amendment. Is this thought still relevant today? Ask any Syrian or Libyan rebel that same question and listen to their response.

So we decided not to ban weapons based on the 2nd Amendment, fine. Lets just restrict them some more? Many of the proponents of more gun restriction seem very ignorant of the restrictions we already have. Such as the definition of an "Assault Weapon", which has already been explained and discussed. You cannot easily obtain an automatic weapon in this country. You CAN obtain one though, if you have many thousands of dollars, pay a $200 tax, and find one registered prior to 1986. As a civilian, I have fired several civilian owned and fully automatic weapons; from AK's to HK 23e's. No one died and none were used to kill anyone.

In most states it is legal for me to sell one of my weapons to someone else without any registration or paperwork. As the owner, I am responsible to have no reasonable doubts as to the mental condition or legal status of the person to whom I am selling. This usually means I ask for a drivers license. This will prove that they are sane, and legal to buy a firearm in my state. This is what many call the "Gun Show Loop Hole", and it applies to non-dealers selling guns to non-dealers. Any other firearms purchase requires a background check.

Many states require a cooling down period, politically called a waiting period. It was originally required for the dealer to have time to get the background check completed, but with electronic communications, it now only takes minutes to completed rather than days. This is why some states no longer have this waiting period.

It has been interesting to read some of the perspectives of our EU. and other cousins. In the U.S., many consider the EU. to be more violent than we are. We acknowledge that we are less likely to be shot in the EU., but more likely to be mugged, raped, stabbed, or beaten. Rates of violent crime per 100,000 people are much higher there than here. The same day of our school massacre, a Chinese man went into a school and slashed 20 students and a teacher with his knife. Some will point out that most people survive these attacks, but I prefer to count violence based on the number of victims, not simply by the number of survivors.

Now, all that I have said can be considered biased by many. I am a registered firearms collector with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms. I own many firearms, and several thousands of rounds of ammunition. Most are military weapons from World War I up to and including the cold war. All are in their original configuration and I have fired all my weapons and do so frequently. Why do I have so many you will ask? I love target shooting and I love history. I do not hunt. I am not a maniac and I have never killed anyone. I owned no firearms when I had small children in my house. I am extremely safety minded and require it of others who are around me, or I leave the area when they are present. I carry a legal weapon on my person nearly all the time.

As an American, I consider it wrong to penalize a law abiding citizen due to the actions of others who may be lawless, clueless, or insane. I have made the decision to be responsible for my own protection, and feel that others have also made a decision to NOT protect themselves. It is their choice guaranteed by the same 2nd Amendment. As others have stated, I do not feel the problem is the gun, but the people. I feel we need to have better enforcement of the laws we already have in place, and harsh punishment for those who knowingly sell to those who are ineligible. Let the ones who are part of the problem pay for the problems that they create. Not everyone else.
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Old January 2nd, 2013   #99
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Well, Europe is a very diversified continent and you are painting with a broad brush here. For example Germany has roughly half the violent crimes per 100k people as the US with a comparable status of development and wealth. And I for one have no idea how violent crimes are statistically defined in every single country...

As for measuring a country by this number is IMO a rather dubious way of asserting it's safety while leaving the number of fatal violent crimes aside.

And you reasoning for having small arms is not logical either. In order to be able to topple a tyrannic government people need to have the means to overcome the executive organs especially the military because if the bulk of the armed forces is on the side of the people there won't be a reason for the people to rise up in arms as the armed forces will take care of the tyrannic government.

But if the military is on the side of the tyrannic government small arms won't save your day and any uprising of the people will be flattened by heavy arms.

So why is not legal to buy AT-mines, ATGMs and MANPADs as these are the tool one needs to overthrow a government by force? Ask the Syrians...
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Of all the forums and discussions I've read or participated in here on DT I have never seen one where the lines are so clearly drawn.

On the one side the Americans say, "yes, lets discuss this and find a solution", but as long as it doesn't impede my rights under the constitution to arm myself to the hilt.

The, I'm a law abiding citizen, it’s all someone else’s fault, guns don't kill people, people kill people, it's the crazies, etc, etc.

And on the other side, there are the Europeans and quite a few of us Australian's too.

Our line has been more around, not saying that guns should be banned totally, but the volume and types of weapons loose in the American society, (280M+ guns, nearly one gun for every man, woman and child), should be reduced in both type and quantity and also access to.

We think restrictions on types, numbers and storage is a possible solution, but again the Americans say, first and foremost, No! That impinges on my constitutional rights, and on it goes.

So the solution is simple.... for the US, there is no solution.

Here in Australia it took the Port Arthur massacre of 16 years ago to be our "wake up call".

That event changed everything, there had to be change, and it was painful for those who were pushing pro gun lines to accept the changes that were introduced, but here we are 16 years later and a similar event has not occurred.

Yes of course there continues to be issues of violence, in general, and illegal guns in the Australian community too, there always will be some forms of violence in our society, but I think for the most part the "fear" of a "Port Arthur" type event happening again has past.


The point was made claiming that "many in the US consider the EU more violent", why is that? Fact or ignorance?

Here is a stat on World violence by country:

VIOLENCE DEATH RATE BY COUNTRY

As can be clearly seen this is not the case for Western Europe, yes there is increased violence in Russia and the former Soviet Union (for many reasons), but for the most part Europe is a less violent place than the USA, Australia ranks in amongst the Euro countries too.

Ten years ago my daughter, 18 at the time, went to live in the UK for a year and backpack around Europe, as so many Aussie kids do, it’s like a right of passage for Aussie teens to do.

Did she feel unsafe or threatened? No she didn't, she grew up here in Sydney, 4.5 million people, she knew there, as here, not to go to the more seedy parts of towns and cities, especially at night, her and her friends were safe and had a ball.


A few years ago, when I worked in the Real Estate industry here in Australia, I was looking at some of the US Real Estate web when I came across this "feature" when searching:

Detroit, MI crimes - Trulia.com

It blew my mind, I though "what the F&^K!", I couldn't believe that when searching a particular city or region of the US, that the Real Estate websites, of all places, would have stats on "crime" for that particular area, not something that is on Australian Real Estate sites, but I suppose that is "just the way it is, part of the way of life" for the US, sort of says it all don't you think?


I hope the US can find a way, but I fear it won't, simply because of the mindset of the American people.

What is it going to take to make a change? Maybe sometime after the next and the next and the next massacre? Maybe when a 100 or a 1000 people (or children) are murdered by their own, what?


Sadly I can see it now:

The year is 2099, someone breaks into a home, the home owner blows the intruder away with his large array of “home defence” weaponry, all that is left of the intruder is chunks of meat splattered around the entry hall.

The home owner proclaims that he was glad he could defend his home, it was his Constitutional right to bear arms, unfortunately there is no one left in the US to hear his words, they were the last two Americans standing after everyone else had blown each other away!!!

Last edited by John Newman; January 2nd, 2013 at 10:42 PM. Reason: Fix a number of typos
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Old January 2nd, 2013   #101
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Salesmen have been using the "like selling ice to eskimo,s, or, sand to arabs" or years, now its "like selling guns to Americans!"
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Old January 3rd, 2013   #102
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Here is the real bottom line.

In America, the desire for MILITARY weapons is expressly to defeat a corrupt national government from taking over the country. Those in Europe will laugh at this silly, old world notion. Those in Egypt, Libya, and elswhere may not.

In the 1860's the United States endured a genuine Civil War. America's last election was extremely polarized and was divided virtually 50%.

Those Aussies and Europeans do not fully understand or appreciate the depth and breadth of allegiance to the 2nd Amendment that still exists in this nation, at least for nearly 50%. Consider: the deaths of several thousands of American soldiers has not stopped America going to war.

Why would the deaths, over the last 100 years, of less than 1000 people... yes, less than 1000 people from gun-armed crazies, shift the national focus?

Oh yes, many more people have died from gunshots. But they were killed by polie or private citizens killing assailants.

Check the FBI stats on killings by criminals. McVay's bomb actually killed more children then were killed in Conncecticut. Yes, check the numbers.

Not justifying, just saying. American's have a different mind set than Europeans.

That's why we are free of the Brits and the rest. We fought for it. Ta.

Last edited by Quiller; January 3rd, 2013 at 12:21 AM. Reason: corection
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Old January 3rd, 2013   #103
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Infowars.com
January 2, 2013

Women in Delhi are rushing to apply for gun licenses in the aftermath of the gang rape and murder of a 23-year-old medical student who died in hospital last weekend, but most will be left defenseless as a result of India’s strict gun control laws.



The story again illustrates how draconian gun control policies only serve to disarm victims while emboldening criminals.

On December 16, a couple boarded a bus in the Munirka area of Delhi on their way to Dwarka in the south-west of the city. The woman, who remains unnamed, was subjected to a brutal gang rape that lasted almost an hour before she and her companion were beaten with iron bars then thrown out of the bus into the street. The woman died from her injuries at a Singapore hospital last weekend. Six men were arrested for the murder and could face the death penalty.

The incident generated massive public outcry against the treatment of women in India and a call for tougher anti-violence laws. Figures show that a woman is raped in Delhi every 14 hours and rape cases have doubled in India since 1998. Government efforts to step up police patrols have failed to reduce the rate of violent crime targeting women.

After the story prompted global condemnation, women across Delhi responded by flooding the city’s licensing department with calls demanding to know how they could obtain firearms for self-defense.

“We have received over 1,200 calls since that day. These include not only the average working woman, but even students who travel long distances to colleges and even their concerned parents. They were eager to find out more on the procedure to acquire arms,” a Delhi police officer told the Times of India.

There have already been 274 applications from women since the incident, but most will be left defenseless as a result of India’s draconian gun control laws. To be granted a gun permit in India, applicants have to prove that their life is in immediate danger.

Typically, less than 10 per cent of women who apply for a gun are granted a license, and the majority of these are under an inheritance clause which allows them to own a firearm if their husband or father had a permit. In 2010 and 2011, over 600 applications for firearms in Delhi were rejected. The licensing system is also discriminatory against women, forcing parents to hand over weapons to their daughters as the only way to ensure self-defense.

When hundreds of concerned women turned up in person at the Delhi licensing office, they were told that the threat of rape and violent crime “could not be reason enough” for them to obtain a firearm, and officials were ordered by their superiors to hand the women a letter assuring them that “their daughters were indeed safe on Delhi’s roads.” How a letter would be any use against a violent rapist was not explained.

Almost all of the women who apply for a gun in the interests of self-defense following the gang rape will see their applications rejected and will continue to be at the mercy of sexual predators with no means of protection, once again re-affirming the fact that gun control laws create more victims while aiding violent criminals who are free to target the innocent knowing they will face little or no resistance
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Old January 3rd, 2013   #104
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Here is the real bottom line.

In America, the desire for MILITARY weapons is expressly to defeat a corrupt national government from taking over the country. Those in Europe will laugh at this silly, old world notion. Those in Egypt, Libya, and elswhere may not.

In the 1860's the United States endured a genuine Civil War. America's last election was extremely polarized and was divided virtually 50%.

Those Aussies and Europeans do not fully understand or appreciate the depth and breadth of allegiance to the 2nd Amendment that still exists in this nation, at least for nearly 50%. Consider: the deaths of several thousands of American soldiers has not stopped America going to war.

Why would the deaths, over the last 100 years, of less than 1000 people... yes, less than 1000 people from gun-armed crazies, shift the national focus?

Oh yes, many more people have died from gunshots. But they were killed by polie or private citizens killing assailants.

Check the FBI stats on killings by criminals. McVay's bomb actually killed more children then were killed in Conncecticut. Yes, check the numbers.

Not justifying, just saying. American's have a different mind set than Europeans.

That's why we are free of the Brits and the rest. We fought for it. Ta.

Quiller,

Your comments proves exactly the point that I made, Americans have a certain “mind set” that won't change no matter how many of your own people are slaughtered by your own. Americans just can't and won't see the "trees for the forest".

So you believe that Americans desire Military weapons so they can defeat "Corrupt National Governments", is that what you believe? Guess what? The American War of Independence ended in 1783, the Civil War ended in 1865, it's 2013 for God’s sake!

So when do you expect the US Government, corrupt or otherwise, to take over the country?? Fair dinkum! Are you for real?


If you want to compare the US attitude for the need to maintain military weapons with that of Egypt, Libya, etc, regarding corrupt National Governments, you’re welcome to that thought, as strange as it seems to me.

Excuse me, but Europe has been through far more wars and civil wars that the Americans can ever dream of, starting long before Europeans discovered America too.

As for us Australians, no we haven't had a civil war, but guess what? We have been involved in every major war since the beginning of the 20th Century, and before too.

You say deaths of US soldiers hasn't stopped Americans Going to war, well us Aussies have spilt a lot of blood for others, and defending ourselves, see below:

1301.0 - Year Book Australia, 1988

http://www.awm.gov.au/encyclopedia/war_casualties/

Over 100,000 Aussies have died in wars, well over 200,000 have been wounded and young Australians continue to die and be wounded to this day in Afghanistan too.

My family has been in Australia since the 1830's, they have been involved in the Boer War, WWI and WWII, fighting in South Africa, Gallipoli, the Western Front in France, New Guinea, and here in Australia too, defending against the Japanese.

You don't have to be an American with the history that you have used to be ready to go and fight wars!!

As for me here in Australia now in 2013, do I feel the need to arm myself to the teeth for "home defence" and be ready to overthrow "corrupt" governments too? Well, no I don't!

Doesn't make me any less passionate about my Country as you do for your Country.


Look, getting back to the point of this forum, America is trying to come up with answers to stop the slaughter of its people by its own, those here who are Americans don't want to listen to the suggestions of us "non Americans", Ok fair enough.

As I said earlier, there is only one solution, and that is there is NO solution, because Americans are not prepared to change their thinking, it's in their DNA, the massacres will continue.

Quiller my friend, that is the Bottom line!

Last edited by John Newman; January 3rd, 2013 at 01:54 AM. Reason: fix typo
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Old January 3rd, 2013   #105
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Look, getting back to the point of this forum, America is trying to come up with answers to stop the slaughter of its people by its own, those here who are Americans don't want to listen to the suggestions of us "non Americans", Ok fair enough.

As I said earlier, there is only one solution, and that is there is NO solution, because Americans are not prepared to change their thinking, it's in their DNA, the massacres will continue.
Actually, it seems more like the ones who cannot see the forest because of all the trees are some of the non-US members who keep making what amount to minor variations of the same suggestion, without paying due regard to what can be accomplished either legally or practically in the US.

The question was never, "would what the UK did regarding guns work in the US?" or the similar, "Would what Australia did after Port Arthur work in the US?".

The question was, and remains, "what can be done in the US to prevent a future mass shooting?"

As demonstrated earlier within this thread, it has become quite apparent that many outside the US have little understanding of US legal and political systems, or the fact that there are cultural differences within the US.

The closest analogy I have to what many have attempted within this, would be for the EU to attempt to formulate uniform, EU-wide firearms laws which would replace the relevant national laws of EU member-states. Could such a thing eventually come to pass? Sure it could. Is it the sort of thing which one should plan on happening soon enough to actually prevent a mass shooting in the next decade or so? Somehow I think not.

As for American members not being particularly interested in listening... For suggestions which ignore some fairly basic tenets of how things are done in the US, yeah, most Americans are going to ignore them since they are not useful. Not unlike when the acrophobic man asking for directions to drive from Sydney to Perth keeps getting told to fly there instead, and he still opts to drive instead.

One of the other things which I find so striking about the responses given, it that so little has been about identifying what triggered past incidents, or what could be done to screen people to locate potentially unstable persons prior to an incident.

Lastly, I flat out reject that there is only one solution, or one way to approach this sort of potential problem.
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